Ask Your Herb Doctor 150320 Breast Cancer Episode Transcript
Hosts, Andrew, Sarah
Guest, Dr. Ray Peat
Commercial Message
Andrew: Well, a very good evening to you all. This is Ask Your Herb Doctor on KMUD, Galverville, 91.1 FM. From 7.30 till the end of the show, 8 o'clock callers, as usual, are invited to call in with any questions. I would like to try and iterate that. I would really appreciate those people that are listening. This evening to the show that have questions around the subject of the show I'd really appreciate that just to keep Dr. Peat's attention focused firmly on the subject and to keep the listeners informed as much as possible about this month's subject which is going to be about breast cancer.
Andrew: In the last couple of months, I've been approached by quite a few people actually startling number of people that have either known someone who's going through breast cancer treatment. I've met people that have been dying of breast cancer. And it's just prompted me to bring this subject up again. I believe we have spoken about it in the past. But this month's show will be about breast cancer awareness and prevention. I don't think we want to necessarily dwell on the treatment, although we will mention those alternative medical treatments that are available and are showing pretty good promise for inhibiting estrogen, for example, with the aromatase inhibitors. But the prevention of it, I think, is the fundamental key to good health, and so we put people's diets and lifestyles in the right place to begin with. That preventive strategy is probably a better payoff.
Okay, so you're listening to RSCU, Dr. Kami D. Garbo, 91.1 FM. We're very pleased to welcome Dr. Peat to the show this evening and have his expertise with us. If you live in the area, the 923 number is 923 3911. Or if you're outside the area, as a lot of people who call in do seem to be outside the area, there's a toll free number which is 1-800 KMUD-RAD or you can alternatively just go ahead and use the 707 area code so that'll be 707 923 3911.
Andrew: So just a very brief introduction for myself, my name is Andrew Murray, I graduated in England with a master's degree in herbal medicine, I came to California with my wife Sarah who's very pleased to have on the show again this evening. Thank you Sarah.
Sarah: Good evening, my name is Sarah Johansson-Murray and I'm delighted to be on the show talking about ways to help prevent breast cancer.
Andrew: Okay, so we run a clinic in Garberville where we see patients with a wide range of conditions, treat them with herbal medicine and dietary advice as well as consult with people nationwide. Okay, so Dr. P, are you on the other line?
Ray Peat: Yes, you're right.
Andrew: Great, well thanks so much for joining us on the show. As always, I want to make sure people get an introduction from you about your academic and professional background before we get into tonight's subject.
Ray Peat: Okay, I'm a biologist, a PhD from the University of Oregon, specializing in physiology, especially related to aging and reproductive hormone issues.
Andrew: Okay, excellent. So for tonight... If not as always, it's a speciality that you have given that reproductive hormones are surrounding the picture of tonight's topic on breast cancer. So looking at some articles that I was reading earlier on today, I think most people will recognize breast cancer awareness and the numbers of people that die from breast cancer as being fairly staggering and... I saw an article that was saying it was the leading cause of cancer death among women worldwide. What's your opinion of the causes of breast cancer in the first place and how does this differ from the medical interpretation?
Ray Peat: The animal studies have been pretty clear for almost a hundred years that it is a matter of an estrogen-like... irritation, if not exactly estrogen in the narrowest sense, but the main carcinogenic substances such as in smoke and tar are estrogen-like in their structure and effect. So the breast is very sensitive to an imbalance of estrogen-like stimulation. So it's susceptible to anything that has an estrogen-like effect including smoke and pollutants of various sorts.
Andrew: Is this down to the fact that the estrogen receptors are most concentrated in the breast tissue or some other reason?
Ray Peat: Well, every cell has estrogen receptors, but the way they interact with other... functions, I think, is more important than the number of receptors, because once you're exposed to estrogen, a cell will produce more and more receptors, and progesterone has a very central function of destroying estrogen receptors. So a breast that's well-balanced and exposed to enough progesterone won't have very many. estrogen receptors during the progesterone dominance.
Andrew: Interesting. So you said that the actual exposure to estrogen will cause an upregulation in the expression of estrogen receptors.
Ray Peat: Yeah, pretty much in any cell and irritation in general will do that. A failure of energy combined with stimulation will make estrogen receptors start to appear. So that... Old people, as the energy production decreases, any irritation tends to induce estrogen production as well as sensitivity by the receptors.
Andrew: So interestingly, you're talking about the... causal link, if you like, or the link between estrogen and irritation and stresses. And I think later on, I just want to bring out some more questions surrounding HRT and that kind of thing, and estrogen replacement therapy. And I know when we've talked about many different subjects, you do bring up estrogen as being a causative factor in a lot of inflammation and irritation, and saying at this point in time that... Estrogen can be directly responsible for cancers.
Ray Peat: Yeah, the animal studies in the 30s and 40s were very clear that it isn't just the normally responsive tissues like the uterus and the breast that will cancerize under the influence of estrogen and similar things, but those are just the most sensitive and... With increased uninterrupted exposure to estrogen, the sequence tends to go first cancer of the uterus, then cancer of the breast, then of the lungs, kidneys, intestine and liver and brain.
Andrew: Are you talking about primaries now or metastases?
Ray Peat: No, primary.
Andrew: Right, okay, okay.
Ray Peat: Any tissue that is de-energized and irritated will develop not only the ability to respond to estrogen but actual ability to make estrogen so that your fat or your skin or your liver can become a source of estrogen in proportion to how much stress you're under, even if you don't have ovaries.
Andrew: Go on. I was going to cover the subject. I'll try and remember the subject and if you want me to ask a question about fat and conversion to estrogen. Go ahead.
Sarah: So it's not just our monthly cycling that's exposing women to estrogen. Estrogen is so prominent in foods and in our environment, increasingly so with our degradation of the environment.
Ray Peat: Yeah, the irritation, the fat is particularly. Sensitive to it, it isn't very well supplied with defensive and energetic systems and so it seems to be a major age-related source of estrogen especially if you're overweight.
Andrew: Interesting, okay so I think that's a subject that should be brought out a little more. So fats in their own right and that. At this point in time, are we talking polyunsaturated fats or fats in general?
Ray Peat: That was just your normal, ordinary fat cells. But since the polyunsaturated fats increase the deposition and storage of fat, and since they break down to form the inflammation promoting prostaglandins, they make the fat cells. More likely to produce excess estrogen.
...
Andrew: ... And ultimately, ultimately over three or four years you say that essentially body fat composition could be turned back to a more saturated type fat if you avoid the polyunsaturated fat.
Ray Peat: Yes, there is a thing called the saturation index which is just the ratio between a saturated fat like stearic acid and the polyunsaturated such as linoleic acid and people with cancer have a higher. Polyunsaturation, lower saturation.
Sarah: But you're saying a saturated fat cell is still capable of producing estrogen?
Ray Peat: Yeah, the cell which is more saturated is stabler and less likely to produce estrogen. But the more highly polyunsaturated fats are very closely connected with estrogen. The amount in the tissue and in circulation of say a five or six unsaturated fats such as you find in fish oil, you produce with aging, these are closely associated with the level of estrogen stimulation.
Sarah: So eating nuts and seeds that are high in those polyunsaturated fats and fried foods that are fried in those corn and......canola oil is going to be more promoting than an estrogenic fat and...
Ray Peat: Yeah, for 80 or 90 years, about every 10 or 15 years, someone has done a study showing that the more polyunsaturated fat in the diet, the higher the cancer incidence, all the way down to extremely rare cancer incidence when there's no... polyunsaturated fats in the diet.
...
Andrew: ... and effect associated with them, and cancer obviously is one of those effects of decreasing energy to promote suitable responses and that, because it's thyroid suppressing effects, that is a direct relationship between low energy and the ability for systems to lose their correct structure and organisation in terms of doing the right thing.
Ray Peat: One of the... I have factors that shows up repeatedly in association with a low rate of cancer is a high fruit intake and fruit eaters getting the carbohydrate and the sugar produce saturated fats of their own so they keep a relatively high saturation index in their tissues.
Andrew: Excellent. Okay, good. Well, you're listening to Ask Your Herb, Dr. Cami DeGarverville, 91.1 FM. This evening's topic is breast cancer.
Andrew: If we do get any callers here between 7, 13, 8, it would be good if we can try and stay on the topic that we're discussing.
Andrew: Dr. P, HRT has always mystified me how HRT's carried on for such a long time. I know they're just talking about it recently that it's maybe not the best thing for women. Now they're finally saying that. Like they are admitting that saturated fats are actually better for you than our polys, but some HRT is a concept How do you think it came to a position where estrogen was such a promoted supposedly beneficial for your bones?
Andrew: We can just think about it as is, shock Springs can really behave like atoms nd to help with... Things like age-related dementia, memory loss and it's actually the opposite, you have plenty of evidence to show that it's completely opposite to that, it's actually not good for your bones, it actually increases the chances of dementia.
Ray Peat: There is a very good essay on the internet, I think it's still available, a Harvard Law School paper by Carla Rosenberg on the history of hormone replacement therapy.
Andrew: Carla Rosenberg? Rosenberg, R-O-T-H-E-N. B-E-R-G.
Ray Peat: ==It gives the political economic history of how the 12 big estrogen companies in 1942 got together to basically take over the FDA, medical journals and universities to indoctrinate the idea that estrogen was the female hormone== that would promote fertility and all good female virtues, even though it went absolutely against the research of the 1930s, which showed that progesterone was the essential female hormone that promoted fertility and good pregnancy success.
Sarah: Well, I mean, they knew back in the 1800s that the chimney sweeps would die of estrogen. Right, testicular cancer. Yeah, testicular cancer from the estrogenic effects of the soot.
Ray Peat: Yeah, but this was all turned around by these 12 giant companies getting together to promote the idea of the estrogen as the beneficial female hormone. So they came on the market with the idea that, I think it was a Harvard husband and wife pair of doctors that promoted the idea that you should give pregnant women estrogen to prevent miscarriage. That produced the generation of DES babies, two generations actually, their daughters also were susceptible to cancer. And after the news got out by the late 50s that estrogen was not good for preventing miscarriage, they came out with the contraception idea. They knew in the 30s that estrogen causes miscarriages. And abortion, and so they sold it for the opposite as long as they could get away with it, then came out on the market to sell it to prevent or interrupt pregnancies.
Sarah: So a lot of contraceptive pills allow pregnancy or fertilization to occur but it inhibits implantation, is that correct?
Ray Peat: Yeah, my thesis advisor... Arnold Soderwal did some very clear research on that, showing that a small amount at the time of, or just before implantation, would prevent implantation. But a slightly larger amount after implantation had occurred would cause it to be ejected. And he made a graph showing that at each stage of......pregnancy, just slightly increasing the dose of estrogen would cause miscarriage. All the way from preventing implantation to aborting it at any stage. It would cause the embryo to die and simply be resorbed.
Andrew: That's incredible. It's like another worldwide... I don't know....brainwashing. I don't know what it is. I think it's so commonly repeated. These different topics are so commonly repeated by broad stream media and those in, for want of a better word, power, the doctors, for example, who are looked up to and respected by most people that go to see them, for their education and their prowess, if you like. I don't know. That... I just find it so incredible that there's evidence out there to show the opposite. In very many cases, it takes such a long time to make an impression, for it to get enough groundswell for the tide to get turned on this kind of thing. I mean, estrogen has been, ever since I can remember, it's been the beneficial female hormone. And HRT, and my mum was on HRT, and I know all these other women on HRT, and it's probably one of the worst things you can do.
Ray Peat: Several years ago, someone did a survey of the publications just in the Journal of the American Medical Association. In the first years after the industry got this conspiracy together, they found that 200 different health conditions had been published in that one journal as......treatable or curable or preventable by estrogen, all of those 200 turned out to be false.
Andrew: Oh my goodness.
Ray Peat: The quantity and quality of the fraud is just... Yeah, staggering....hard to understand. Staggering.
Andrew: Now, didn't...
Sarah: Well, it's all marketing, marketing, marketing.
Andrew: Yeah. Well, what I wanted to ask you is, I think I remember hearing something like,,"The only thing..." Well, and I've not heard you say that just a moment ago, unless I've got it round the wrong way. I thought the only really beneficial thing that estrogen was used for was really for getting pregnant. But you're saying that actually estrogen at this time of just preconception or post-conception would actually abort the fetus?
Ray Peat: Yeah. Soderbal was probably the most concise in this experiment. In showing that it was exactly a dose relationship and you could shift to that dose relationship by increasing either the amount of progesterone or vitamin E as antagonists to that. My dissertation showed that that interaction worked through the availability largely of oxygen. Estrogen cuts off the availability of oxygen to the embryo, making the uterus short-circuit burn up and affect the oxygen before the embryo gets it, and progesterone and vitamin E both improve the delivery or preservation of oxygen for the...
Andrew: Could you just repeat the name of the author again? I wouldn't mind taking a look if I can find out this information myself. What was the name of the author of that...
Ray Peat: Arnold Soderwald. Soderwald. How do you... S-O-D-E-R?
Ray Peat: S-O-D-E-R-W-A-L-L.
Sarah: And didn't... And didn't you say A-L-L? Okay, well... Didn't you say, Dr. Peat, that they didn't promote progesterone for all these 200 different diseases because it's so expensive to manufacture and estrogen is so cheap to manufacture and they wanted to make more money off the estrogen?
Ray Peat: More than that, it was that they knew in the 30s, someone simply put a glass plate in the smoke of the candle and then extracted the soot and found that they had a whole variety of chemical substances, soot essences, which were estrogenic as well as carcinogenic. And so they understood that... There was an infinite opportunity for having a patentable specific estrogen that you could market as your own product, but anytime you change the molecule of progesterone, you decrease or destroy its effect.
Sarah: And so all those synthetic progestins actually have an estrogenic effect.
Ray Peat: Yeah, because progesterone, part of its effect is......what it turns into, and the additives attached to the progesterone molecule specifically block its conversion into that natural range of other steroids. And since the brain is a major source and user of progesterone, probably the worst effect of the synthetic progesterones is. that they interfere with brain
Andrew: brain function oh my gosh
Sarah: so here's a here's a hormone that helps breast cancer patients helps pregnancies all these pro-life wonderful effects and they can't patent it because it's a natural hormone so it's not promoted and it's not sold readily available.
Ray Peat: Marian Diamond, a professor. University of California did studies on animals showing that estrogen in pregnancy stops the growth of the brain, especially the cortex, makes it thinner and smaller. The testosterone increases the growth, especially of the cortex of the brain, making it bigger, more intelligent, less psychopathic. And Catherine Dalton, working in England with her human patients, found accidentally the same thing turning out, that the women who were having pregnancy difficulties before treatment, and their older kids averaged below 100 IQ once she treated them and prevented their toxemia of pregnancy. The kids averaged over 130 IQ.
Andrew: Wow.
Sarah: And isn't it quite expensive for companies to manufacture pure bioidentical progesterone?
Ray Peat: Well, not compared to what drugs generally cost. I mean, the raw material, if you compared raw material for estrogen, if it's just soot. Yeah, you can get a thousand doses of estrogen for a dollar. Only a few doses of progesterone for a dollar.
Sarah: So that it just all comes down to the dollar, the money.
Andrew: I wanted to very quickly bring, we have a call on the line, but we'll take that in a moment here. I just wanted to bring out this thing before we would move on to strategies to help women especially, because men do get breast cancer but the numbers are fairly low, but women especially, to improve their odds of not getting cancer by avoiding all those things Dr. P. You're going to bring out from stress and its related effects with estrogen and everything else that tamoxifen was a drug that was used to treat breast cancer actually promoted endometrial cancer and thromboembolic events in so many people that it was given to
Ray Peat: and liver tumors and high damage
Andrew: okay
Sarah: and you mentioned that it's actually an estrogenic drug itself very powerful estrogenic drug you
Ray Peat: estradiol and so it can protect against the overproduction of estradiol but in itself it's estrogenic
Andrew: yeah incredible okay well let's take this uh let's take this call and uh see where we're going with this hello call you're on the air and where you from
Caller 1: hi from kansas city hey we're on the air go ahead um uh in last month's interview on urea dr pete mentioned that up to 120 grams per day 15 grams at a time for getting rid of excess water when you said excess water what were you what were you referring to exactly
Ray Peat: um that's interesting in relation to estrogen because within about five minutes of an exposure to estrogen cells begin to take up a lot of water and that excess water stimulates cell division and growth and that's part of the process of promoting cancer growth is to keep them in an excited inflammatory state of too much water which keeps them from differentiating and functioning but makes them able to keep dividing and so one of the principles of cancer treatment should be Looking at the body's water economy
Caller 1: One of the question on that was So how long or how often for the 120 grams of urea per day to actually have that benefit?
Ray Peat: the Greek doctor Danopoulos was using Using urea in various forms injecting it right into tumors for example also giving it intravenously and it can be applied in crystal or solid form to an open superficial tumor. It's a very strange material because it doesn't destroy tissue when even in a pure crystalline concentrated form and the injecting of urea into the urethra. Of 50% solution or a concentrated solution, it is possible if it goes in slowly, but people are used to thinking of an osmotic effect from a concentrated crystalline material, but urea isn't an osmolyte. It has a very strange interaction with water. It can go into cells freely just like the water. So what it's doing to remove excess water from cells isn't osmotically drawing out the water, it's doing something, adjusting the structure of the cell so that it doesn't have that excited need to retain water. And the typical intravenous dose would use a 30 percent solution. Giving maybe 20 grams at a time, but up to a total of 120 grams per day, which could be either for using it as a diuretic for heart failure or for inflammation of the brain when the brain is holding too much water because of a disturbance of the antidiuretic hormone or vasopressin. Or in treating cancer, so 20 or 30 grams at a time can also be given orally and is well absorbed and circulates systemically, so it doesn't have to be intravenous. And if it is used intravenously, it has to be added to a physiological solution of sodium chloride or glucose. 5 or 10 percent solution of glucose can have 30 percent, not necessarily that amount, but it can have a full load of urea added to it.
Sarah: So you're saying that you could do 20 to 30 grams a day, which is probably about a couple teaspoons?
Ray Peat: Yeah, that much up to 120 grams. And then you'd want to dissolve it in a little salt water?
Ray Peat: Or fruit juice. The people recommending it for treating heart failure, they've had patients staying on it for years where the other diuretics were disturbing their mineral metabolism. They were very stable on using urea. And they recommended... using about 20 grams at a time in a glass of fruit juice and doing that several times a day.
Sarah: So that's probably like two-thirds of an ounce. And urea is a commonly available compound.
Andrew: Very cheap.
Sarah: Very inexpensive. And there's been lots of studies showing its benefit.
Andrew: Okay, well thanks for your call caller.
Andrew: Dr. P, what I wanted to... if I could just briefly... ask your opinion of the cause of breast cancer, then we can look at some of the strategies that people can employ to negate that or prevent it.
Ray Peat: The standard opinion is that it's a genetic thing, either inherited or occurring randomly. And the evidence is just overwhelming against that, the genetic... problems almost always develop after the cancer is in progress. The overstimulation and undersupply of energy to the cell keeps the DNA from being repaired. So the stress causes the mutation rather than the mutation causing the cancer. But the inherited genes such as, what's it called, BRCA.
Andrew: Right. Yeah, BRAC1 and 2.
Ray Peat: Yeah. That is simply an indication that the person is more sensitive to stress and estrogen toxic effects. So, the anti-estrogen programs are... more important, more effective for protecting them.
Andrew: ... KMUDRAD is 1-800-568-3723 So, Dr. Pate, let's quickly look at a strategy, a strategy, a lifelong strategy, if you like. It's never too late to change. Some people leave it till the last minute, some people get on board fairly quickly, but in terms of the strategy to prevent that likelihood of occurring, given that you're saying it's very much stress-related and the effects of stress. Probably bringing in things like nitric oxide and estrogen directly increased in stress. How would you look at best avoiding that?
Ray Peat: When you look at stress, the falling blood sugar and rising lactic acid are universal features of stress. And it happens that lactic acid is the main signal. We're producing the endorphins, the endogenous opiates, and if you look at the effects of stress, they're very closely all down the line associated with an excess and a prolonged production of the endogenous opiates and everything that is uncomfortable will increase your tendency to overproduce lactic acid hyperventilating for example from anxiety when your carbon dioxide goes down your lactic acid goes up and strangely the endorphins didn't get any of of the bad connotations of morphine
Sarah: Why no, I mean you hear the word endorphin and you think gosh, it's good.
Ray Peat: Yeah a study at University of California in San Diego In the I think it was dermatology department they were experimentally giving people massages and Measuring their various stress hormones. They saw that massaging lowered the beta endorphin and Everything pain or over exertion anything that interferes with the energy supply will increase the opiates or endorphins.
Sarah: So you would think that having a massage would increase your endorphins when in reality of course it's the opposite of what you're told.
Andrew: Because the endorphins are not good, okay all right can I move on to the aromatase inhibitors that are I think I've become.
Sarah: Well I think what Dr. Peat was trying to get to there is that the low dose naltrexone is being used therapeutically by a lot of doctors and it's very useful because it lowers those endorphins that are so harmful. All those endogenous opiates, opiates your body produces naturally that can be harmful in times of stress.
Ray Peat: Yeah and everything you do that's good, pleasure such as the massage will... have that same effect of protecting you against the endorphins and nitric oxide so the naloxone or naltrexone low dose treatment has a wide range of anti-stress effects including protection against a promotion of cancer.
Sarah: And the happy factor too, right?
Ray Peat: Um, well... Serotonin and endorphins are often called the happy hormones, but actually they are the most important mediators of stress. Downstream, even though estrogen turns on lactic acid and endorphins and nitric oxide, the endorphins in turn activate estrogen receptors. Aromatase, prolactin, which acts as an amplifier of estrogen's effect, you get this back and forth action increasing inflammation, estrogenicity, and lowering energy production.
Sarah: Wow, so what can we do, Dr. Peat, to lower this estrogen with our diet?
Ray Peat: The foods that... naturally contain anti-aromatases, I think are very important. I always mention orange juice and guavas, but there are lots of fruits and vegetables that contain similar chemicals.
Sarah: So the naringenin is found in orange juice, but also in higher levels in the... In the skins? Is that what you were saying, Dr. Peat?
Ray Peat: Oh, yeah, the...
Sarah: Of the oranges? The skin? Orange skin?
Ray Peat: Both the juice and the feeling contain the protective things. So marmalade is another source of protective substances.
Sarah: Anti-estrogen breast cancer preventative compound.
Ray Peat: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: And then what about apigenin? That's another aromatase inhibitor that you were mentioning.
Ray Peat: Um, yeah, I think guavas. And celery and parsley are the highest sources of that.
Andrew: Okay, and COX-2 inhibitors were another rationale for blocking aromatase.
Ray Peat: Um, yeah, aspirin for about 20 years. I've been mentioning aspirin as probably the safest first thing that anyone who worries about breast cancer should start. It is a very effective way to turn off estrogen production and response to estrogen.
Sarah: And how much a day would you recommend?
Ray Peat: People with aggressive cancer probably should take four to six grams and in that case they also need to take......vitamin K to prevent a bleeding problem.
Sarah: Yeah, up until the... I had a patient who was taking six grams of aspirin a day and they just started to get the ear ringing, so up until that point where you get the ear ringing then you know you're at the maximum and you want to back off just slightly till you don't get that ear ringing. But you have to use a milligram, not a microgram, but a milligram of vitamin K for every normal standard aspirin tablet which is 325 milligrams.
Andrew: I just wanted to bring out a couple of plant-based aromatase inhibitors that I know we were taught about when we were studying. Mistletoe. Mistletoe has been shown to be an aromatase inhibitor and I know work was done with cancer probably for that same reason or maybe inadvertently they figured that it was helpful probably through a estrogen blocking activity. Well do you know much about mistletoe? Physiologically how you would rationalize it?
Ray Peat: About 50 years ago I ran into some Anthroposophy people who got me interested in it and so I've followed the research on it but I don't think anything......very new has turned up.
Andrew: Because the other things they mentioned were, and you did mention this last month, white button mushrooms. I think the brown button mushrooms are just the same kind of compounds but there are aromatase inhibitors in white button mushrooms. And I know you mentioned a dose last month that would be a realistic dose as an aromatase inhibitor.
Ray Peat: Yeah, the Chinese study found that the women who had at least 10 grams a day on average......had extremely low cancer mortality, and especially if they had green tea too, like 88% lower.
Andrew: Okay, and then I think the last two things were coffee and...
Sarah: And green tea.
Andrew: Coffee and green tea, yeah.
Sarah: And normal black tea too, I mean they would all have the same compound. And I did, there was a caller who called in about black cohosh and that is an estrogenic herb and I would not recommend that for treatment or use with patients with breast cancer. Or I would not recommend it to prevent breast cancer.
Andrew: Ok, so people that are going through breast cancer treatment and I don't mean to ask you about this because I know you are definitely not in favour of it but the chemotherapy, radiotherapy approach to cancer is just not doing it is it?
Ray Peat: Yes, there is a website that I am not sure what is available on it but he has written some very good articles on the issue of when and whether to treat certain types of cancer his name is Gershom Zajicek and his accent, now that he has YouTube videos, it's... Hard to understand, so if you can find his written articles, they're quicker to get through. But from the time of Hippocrates, I think Hippocrates said that for internal cancer, patients who are not treated will last a long time, but those who are treated die quickly. Gershom Zajicek makes a similar point and 50 years ago, a Berkeley professor... Arden Jones did a study and clearly showed that the longer a person waits before treating a cancer, the longer they live.
Sarah: Well and also there was a study that showed 95% of people over the age of 50 had some form of abdominal cancer.
Andrew: Yeah, an autopsy if they died before.
Sarah: Yeah, if they died like in a car crash or for some other unrelated to cancer reason. And 95% of people do not die of cancer, so.
Ray Peat: Another person said that looking at all of the organs, 100% of people by the age of 50 have diagnosable cancer somewhere.
Andrew: We do have a caller on the air, so let's take this next caller. Caller, you're on the air and where are you from?
Caller 2: Garberville, downtown Garberville.
Andrew: Okay, go ahead.
Caller 2: Thank you, gentlemen and lady, for your wisdom and your knowledge. I have a question about... A while back I thought I understood that in all the skunky vegetables, cabbage, brussel sprouts, that kind of stuff, that there's a lot of estrogen in those vegetables naturally. Is that true?
Andrew: They certainly contain lots of sulfur compounds. Dr. Peat, I think there is a...
Sarah: They're so thyroid-suppressive that they allow estrogen to build up. Naturally in men and women, because men actually usually have a lot higher levels of estrogen than women. But are they directly estrogenic, Dr. Peat?
Ray Peat: There are some studies in animals showing a direct estrogenic effect of DIM and its metabolite.
Sarah: IP3?
Ray Peat: Yeah.
Sarah: Those are commonly touted as breast cancer-preventative, endometrial cancer-preventative....compounds, and Dr. Peat just said that there's lots of studies showing that they can have estrogenic effects in and of themselves.
Ray Peat: So I would say that sometimes they probably do have good effects, but I would wait for more research on them.
Caller 2: Okay, well I'm not going to worry about how many Brussels sprouts or cabbage I eat. And I want to thank you kindly for your wealth of information, Dr. Peat, over the years here. Thank you. Good night.
Sarah: If you're still listening caller, you can cook your your kale, which is the most nutritious out of all of them, very very well and cook it with lots of coconut oil and you will reduce some of the thyroid suppressive effects.
Caller 2: Excellent, thank you.
Andrew: Okay, all right, so were you going to say anything Dr. P?
Ray Peat: Yeah, on the topic of stress and cancer, about 15 or 20 years ago Carl Simonton was in the news. Recommending emotional therapy or changing your attitude, visualizing, trying to have anything to reduce stress as a way to improve survival. He noticed that he was a radiation treater of cancer and he noticed that... With the same treatment, his patients who were curier lived longer and later a group at Stanford and UC Berkeley did a study in which one group of women with advanced breast cancer were given some kind of emotional counseling and a similar number was just... treated in a standard way. The ones with the counseling lived twice as long.
Andrew: Yeah, the mind-body connection is underestimated.
Sarah: So it shows the mind controls all.
Andrew: We do have another caller on the air, so let's take this call up. Caller, you're on the air, where are you from? Hello, caller, you're on the air, where are you from?
Caller 3: Yes, hello? Hi. Yeah, I'm from Guyreville. I'd like to... you mentioned the cabbage and the...
Andrew: And you should turn the radio down, Carla, because your radio's on. Or something's on.
Caller 3: Oh. Okay, well, I want to... is it okay now?
Andrew: Yeah, it's just the same.
Caller 3: Oh, okay, hold on. I'll put it down.
Sarah: Well, while we're waiting for...
Caller 3: Hello, is that better?
Andrew: Yeah, that's better, thank you.
Caller 3: Okay, yeah, I always heard that I think they call it cruciferous vegetables. Right, that's the brassicas. Broccoli and cauliflower and cabbage were very anti-cancer and were good for you and especially the colon. Now, I tend to like to eat a lot of raw cabbage in salad. Is it any better if you don't cook it or you do cook it? You say that it suppresses thyroid?
Sarah: Yes, it suppresses your basic energy currency of your body, your body's ability to use oxygen. And if it's raw, it's very, very potent. Actual thyroid drugs used to treat hyperactive thyroid have the same exact compound that's in cabbage juice. So raw cabbage is particularly harmful to your energy metabolism of your body.
Ray Peat: But leaves in general can stimulate the intestines so it has a speedier transit and a... That reduces the recycling of estrogen. The liver excretes estrogen in the bile and if you have slow transit tend to be constipated then much of that estrogen is reabsorbed and circulates again in the body.
Caller 3: So in other words if you do eat like something like cabbage it can make everything move through your intestines more quickly.
Sarah: Right but there's safer things you can eat to move get your intestines moving like raw grated carrot. And you could eat spinach or chard that you cook with a little bit of baking soda and that will get your intestines moving.
Caller 3: What about raw foods? I heard that they have good enzymes in them. They help digest the cooked food. Like if you have salad with raw carrots and cabbage and lettuce and that sort of thing that's good for you.
Sarah: Dr. Peat?
Ray Peat: There is always the risk that since humans can't digest... cellulose at all, but bacteria can. The uncooked food is great for bacterial replication, but very poor for human nutrition. And so it's a risk and can cause... Well,
Caller 3: what about fresh fruit?
Sarah: Well, fresh fruit doesn't have such high cellulose content.
Ray Peat: Yeah, the low fiber fruits are very good.
Caller 3: So, but you wouldn't, you don't think raw vegetables are good? I mean, I always thought...
Sarah: Only raw carrot because the bacteria can't digest the raw carrot fiber like they can...
Caller 3: But if everything, if it helps move through your intestines quickly...
Sarah: Well, then that's why you choose the things that are safer to help your intestines move more quickly.
Caller 3: Well, then why do we keep hearing that one of the best things to eat to prevent cancer is the cruciferous vegetables?
Andrew: Unfortunate misinformation.
Sarah: Why do we keep hearing that HRT is supposed to be protective for your bones?
Andrew: Why do we keep hearing that estrogen is good for you? Why do we keep hearing that sugar is bad for you? It's unfortunate. I think we have to call that the evening. But thank you so much for callers who called in and thank you Dr. Peat for your time. I'll just let people know how to get hold of you.
Andrew: Um, yeah I think I just want to sum this show up by saying that what you've heard this evening have a have a rethink about it because You probably never really heard it before and what you have heard is not the truth and it's so easy it's so easy to get brainwashed by media and by companies producing product that it's very important that you do your own research because you will find the truth out there and people like Dr Peat has spent in most of his life researching either directly or looking at peer-reviewed papers and looking at the scientific evidence.
Andrew: So it's unfortunate we get bombarded, but we do have the ability to Turn on the turn on the computer and do our own research But just thanks once again for joining us with the show his number or rather his website is www.raypete.com r-a-y-p-e-a-t And we can be reached Monday through Friday on our toll free number 1888 WBM herb
Sarah: So good night. Thank you for listening. My name is Sarah. Johannes and Murray.
Andrew: My name is Andrew. My good night
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