Generative Energy Podcast Ep 38 Transcript

SKIPPED TO 09:37

Ray Peat: Yeah, just not wanting to wear a mask and having a piece of plastic two inches in front of your face doesn't disturb anything.

Host: One of the crazy things like in Mexico, the people that seem to be like the mask and the face shield and things like that, the the most affected people seem to be the lowest like socio-economic. type of individuals like the people cleaning the harveen or like are suffering so badly wearing a mask when it's extremely hot outside and so something like i don't know somebody in san francisco they might not think it's a big deal to go to the shop and wear a mask or something but it's like you gotta think about people that are suffering big time you know

Ray Peat: yeah

Host: Okay, so Georgie you have some questions just about life in general and then we can kind of move on to we were talking about respiration and kind of going step by step in the last few live streams about just the stress system and all the work that Ray has done but Georgie I'll let you take take the reins.

Georgi: Yeah my questions are rare I mean I'm sure I'm sure you've seen the news that they found water on the moon and also they found phosphine. In on venus and they've been used over the last like five or ten years that they found vitamin b3 and glycine in outer space so especially when it comes to phosphine the consensus if we believe it says that phosphine cannot really that they don't know of any of any inorganic process that is capable of creating phosphine all the processes on earth seem to involve life do you think that that suggested maybe. There may be life forms of venus and other planets as well.

Ray Peat: Very possible but I don't think they have a broad enough conception of what life is. I think there are probably life equivalents that have gone down a very different route for making organisms. I think of it as a. A basic reflex of being of matter itself that is a starting point of life and there is. You can go off in an infinite number of directions except as limited by those innate impulses intrinsic to matter. So I would not. Limit my possibilities to thinking that organisms had to have been the source.

Georgi: Okay, so what would be a good test for life? I mean, considering that our ideas so far about life are, well, not ours, but scientific ideas about life are so limited.

Ray Peat: Oh, I think it has to be an inductive kind of perceptual reason. Watch something and see what happens.

Georgi: So if it basically displays pattern recognition qualities that would classify as consciousness basically?

Ray Peat: Yeah, self-organizing and generating order out of disorder.

Georgi: Right, but it's not at all limited to the physical manifestations that we're familiar with here on Earth, right?

Ray Peat: Right. I think you could imagine processes that are more like a layer of matter that keeps reorganizing itself in all directions, but without separating off in the individual organisms. My picture of a solid substance is very similar to everything we think of as life. In a metal, you have the little magnetic domains, the crystal-forming domains, that are in the passage of time and energy through the metal, like if the metal bends back and forth, these domains will interact and build up and form crack possibilities. And similar domains to the little magnetic domains that, for example, if you hammer a magnet, it gradually loses. Magnetism, unless it's in a magnetic field, but just hammering a piece of iron in the Earth's magnetic field, the iron will rearrange itself and form a big magnet because those little domains are constantly ready to respond to their environment. And I think there are... electric domains, even though the metal seems to be conducting as a whole or a unit, I think there are electronic domains on a small scale that define properties such as photoelectric properties and all of these intrinsically... organizing subunits of something that seems to be a mere mass of an element, all of these have lifelike properties.

Ray Peat: So I would see granite, for example, as tending to become more alive.

Georgi: So basically, if we can talk of any generic requirements for life, it would be some form of a self-directed, self-controlled, autonomous electron flow?

Ray Peat: Yeah, exactly.

Georgi: Okay. But then again, the shape, if we can say the shape of that life form would be context-specific. You'll be different depending on where you're looking at, right? Saturn would have a different life form, Venus would do.

Ray Peat: Because all of these things like the iron hammer in the Earth's field. It's taking on, its nature is developing in relation to its environment and I think that's always happening. Everything on some level knows where it is in the world, not only where but when. So the awareness of process. Everything really is not only needing to be defined in terms of everything in its momentary environment but in the tendency of the environment to be changing in a certain direction.

Georgi: Okay. Well, according to this discussion we had, then all of these approaches that NASA has to find in life seem hopelessly obsolete. We're just looking for something that looks like bacteria. No matter where they send their probes. So it means like it's kind of stupid to do that.

Ray Peat: Exactly. They are ideologues as to what life is. And if you look at what they dogmatically believe a cell is, you have to say that the whole enterprise is stupid. Even as they try to understand bacteria on Earth, they're committed to impossible doctrines. So naturally, if they look for something that doesn't quite exist on Earth, they're likely to be missing everything interesting.

Georgi: What do you make out of the reports that the original Voyager probes that went to Mars in the 1970s... apparently initially reported that they found organic life forms there, but then, you know, I guess the powers that be quickly decided that, you know, it was a mistake. The sensors weren't properly calibrated.

Ray Peat: Yeah, I think that happens all the time.

Georgi: Okay.

Ray Peat: The raw data everywhere is more entry official conclusion, like the Michelson-Morley experiment. Uh, the textbooks, uh, uh, uh, uh, insist... Uh, that they didn't find an ether drift, uh, but it's very clear in, in their data. Uh, and in the follow-up studies over the next 20 or 30 years, uh, it kept being confirmed. Uh, and, uh, the, the establishment, uh, uh, periodically subsidizes someone to, uh, uh, shoot down, uh, uh, the alternative interpretations, uh, just because they were... close to the actual recorded data isn't sufficient. They, they violate the paradigm, and so have to be destroyed.

Georgi: Do you think the discovery of life, uh, outside of, of Earth may have a, some sort of a politically destabilizing effect that may, may trigger the collapse of the current fake ideas? And that's maybe why, uh, even if they have been discovered, we haven't heard anything about them?

Ray Peat: Yeah, yeah, it's exactly the same sort of thing that led to Gilbert Ling being isolated and absolutely walled off from the whole scientific world.

Host: You mentioned Halton Arp a bunch of times. If what he found was taken seriously, that would lead to a reimagining of everything, right?

Ray Peat: Yeah, yeah. Fred Soddy, the isotope guy, Fred Soddy in his actual writings was a very interesting person who believed in continuing creation in empty space and exactly harmonizing with Halton Arp.

Georgi: So the continuous creation would be, in the Electric Universe theory lingo, would be the creation of charged particles out of neutrinos under the effects of the electrical force. Is that right?

Ray Peat: Yeah, that's their idea, but Halton Arp, or Fred Soddy, believed that cosmic rays represented... newly-created atoms, and Halton Arp was seeing these clouds, the red-shifted clouds, attached to an old-looking galaxy. I think he was seeing the concentrated, newly-formed matter, and Halton Arp was suggesting the stray bits of it that didn't condense. In a new, red-shifted galaxy that we're seeing newly-created matter constantly streaming through the world.

Georgi: So what would be the process that creates that new matter? Is that like the high-intensity, the energetic intensity of a star?

Ray Peat: Um, yeah, any coseriff would argue that it was the passage of time itself. The asymmetry of being, that time is a property of matter, getting richer and more in quantity, improving its complexity and mass even. No one ever really attempted to... argue against his reasoning that there was simply the assumption 160 years ago that time must be symmetrical, that there must be the possibility of time going in the other direction, which just doesn't make sense.

Ray Peat: There was a mathematical physics professor... at the University of Oregon, who believed he could explain the nuclear fission and lots of things in terms of particles coming from the future, coming backwards in time and hitting at present things, but no one has rationally tried to deconstruct Kozyrev's view that... matter is asymmetrical in the sense of always getting later and that passage of time in asymmetry is adding information and energy to the universe constantly.

Georgi: Okay, in those original Dudley papers about the neutrino sea... I think I remember him saying that he thought that the neutrinos were created inside stars. Do you remember that paragraph?

Ray Peat: Not that particular paragraph, but that would overlap nicely with Kozyrev's time. Kozyrev said matter is being, or energy is being created in relation to the mass and his predictions. of planetary internal energy have been confirmed fairly recently, even in terms of the big gaseous planets. Everything is fitting his scheme of heat production internally in proportion to their mass. And he worked it out for stellar energy in terms of mass, but then applied it. to the Earth's internal heat and was looking to test it in the dark of the moon when he saw red eruptions on the moon.

Ray Peat: And that has been confirmed repeatedly, but it was denied just because it violated the conservation of matter and energy at such a radical level.

Georgi: Yeah, I was just about to ask you, like, if matter is created constantly and energy increases proportionally, wouldn't that immediately violate the conservation of matter and also the second law of thermodynamics?

Ray Peat: Yeah, but he pointed out that that was all deduced from Christian beliefs about the creation of the universe.

Georgi: Understood, understood.

Ray Peat: Thank you.

Georgi: In one of your interviews with Danny, you talked about Lenin and basically the idea of memory versus matter, and you said that matter is basically, and that's what Lenin said apparently, is that matter is nothing except what we can know and become, but we don't know where matter is coming from. Is that like maybe the ultimate unanswerable question, where is matter coming from?

Ray Peat: Um, yeah, I think all of these people have given... a rational side of the answer, that neutrinos appearing according to the mass of the matter, that and Kozyrev's projection of stellar energy in terms of mass or cosmic rays have... being the earliest form of matter coming into existence with kinetic energy as part of their inheritance from the nature of matter.

Ray Peat: And I think the process of knowing where matter comes from will involve......getting a grasp on what the nature of a neutrino is, and what electrons and protons and neutrons are, and all of their potentialities, and I think a picture will emerge that has a more satisfying......answer to why is matter emitting energy and becoming greater in complexity and mass.

Georgi: The physicist David Bohm thought that there's a creative principle in the universe, and he was, I guess, speaking, repeating what Aristotle said as well. Do you think that that creative principle may be what's responsible for this constant stream of matter into existence?

Ray Peat: Yep. That's just another way of talking about the same thing. The next development of man, Banker wrote a series of books on alternate views of physics. And what was his name? White. Lancelot Law White. He was looking for that same principle that Bohm called the creative principle, or the kosher of cold time, and the empirical things that Halton Arp saw. I think they're all talking about exactly the same thing.

Georgi: So when humans exercise their creative principles, such as paintings or creating music or doing any kind of creative activity, do you think we're doing something akin to creating energy, creating matter?

Ray Peat: Yeah, I think of consciousness as a sort of electronic gel inside the brain. It has different properties according to the chemical. ... is electronic in nature like an excited cloud that is simply resting on the living substance and functioning to integrate the living substance, but it has its intrinsic rules of energy. Yeah, I think of consciousness as a sort of electronic gel inside the brain. It has different That when it's operating at a low energy, some people, for example, will never dream in anything but words or symbols, others will only dream in monochromatic images, and people who have had a very happy life, not too much stress, will have... more satisfying full sensory polychromatic dreams, and their thought processes will be similarly able to be relatively free-floating, so that you can imagine things kinesthetically and involving all of the sensory properties informing.

Ray Peat: Images that make your thought processes tend to stay very close to empirical reality, but that we are helping the universe to generate the possibilities for the next step of substantial change, that the energy is reaching a point where it can......guide the organism to make the decisions that will allow a richer biological life, further supporting the range of the mental creative qualities.

Georgi: Are you familiar with the sensory deprivation experiments that started out in the 60s, I think by the CIA, where they put people into these completely soundproof... and lightproof rooms in complete darkness and silence, and then within a few minutes, people start to basically dream while awake.

Ray Peat: Yeah, anyone can do it if they just pay attention. Many times I've asked people what they see when they close their eyes, and they usually say, what do you mean? You don't see anything when your eyes are closed. But if you say, well, don't you see? Black, or red, or something, and lots of people will deny that they see blackness when they close their eyes.

Georgi: So would you say that this is an indication of basically the brain's constant need to create through dreams?

Ray Peat: Yeah. Once you start doing it, you see that there's stuff going on. It just isn't... just the color of your eyelids or darkness that you're seeing. You're looking into your brain, and the brain is constantly playing around, producing all sorts of things. If you happen to notice something interesting pass by in your attention, you can direct your attention to it. It's like tuning in. A very rich TV, according to the way you tune, you can get more and more information, sort of a hypertext of imagery.

Host: I'll put myself out there, but I'll see like fractal patterns and like big kind of circular objects with that seem like electric sometimes passing by. And then I've noticed taking things like progesterone and thyroid seem to calm. down the fractal patterns.

Ray Peat: Yeah, you can get perfect blackness if you are very calm and in the dream-ready state. The background should be able to quiet down into total blackness. A very impressive darkness you don't necessarily notice at night or in a cave. It's the internal quietness of your retina and brain but as soon as you are active in any sense then you start seeing thoughts and dreams.

Host: One other thing for me the I've noticed this since I was a little kid but if I lay down and kind of like I might be inducing harm but like press on my eyes it almost seems like a psychedelic type of like a show when I do that it does that make any kind of sense but then it will disappear when I stop pressing them or if I open my eyes and I won't be able to duplicate it then I'll have to wait till the next day to do the same thing is that am I making any sense?

Ray Peat: Oh sure it's creating a stimulus inflow on your retina and that activates your visual center of the brain and those who are going back and forth all the time. Did I ever tell you the experiment that they did with chickens putting electrodes at the back of their eyeballs and showing them different images when they showed them a checkerboard pattern? They would get a checkerboard pattern in the pickups on the back of the retina. And when they took the eyeball out and were still measuring at the end of the optic nerve, it became totally quiet. The chickens weren't seeing anything and the electrodes didn't pick up anything, but they gave some LSD.

Ray Peat: And started getting all kinds of complicated imagery at the outer end of the optic nerve. And that shows that chickens at rest aren't projecting thoughts out into the world. But when you test a similar thing by putting an image onto a floating contact... lens projector, so that the image becomes fixed on the retina in just two or three seconds of complete fixation, one of the images blanks out and there will be recurring flashes every five or ten seconds. The first image is perceived, then it disappears. Then there are waves where it comes back, and if it's a basically random image, a squiggly line, that quickly disappears and doesn't come back. You become blind to that random pattern.

Ray Peat: But if superimposed on that squiggly line, there is some... familiar shape, like the letter B or number 4, something that we're exposed to very frequently. All of the squiggly lines disappear, but the retina stays sensitized and continues to see the images that are meaningful to the brain, indicating the brain is meaningfully... re-energizing and sensitizing the retina, but ordinarily the retina is fatigued and stops seeing an immobile pattern of stimulation.

Ray Peat: So it shows that people are constantly activating their retina from the brain with endodromic impulses.

Georgi: So basically the dreaming is during the day external impulses are imprinting patterns on our retina and at night when the stimulus is no longer there the brain basically goes into you know free creative mode in juxtaposing all of these images and does it does it does it project them back to the retina is that what we see them when we're dreaming?

Ray Peat: Yeah, not necessarily the LSD type dream. It tends to be like perceiving luminosity in space, but it can concentrate on the retina and you can tell the difference. Salvador Dali was very good at that kind of introspection and he called the brain dependent. I independent imagery, he called the camembert for its continuity and lack of granularity and he called the seeing that involves the retina a caviar because it's broken up into nervous units.

Georgi: Didn't he change his views on cautiousness though? Later in his life he turned really rigid. In regards to what he thought cautiousness was?

Ray Peat: In regards to what?

Georgi: Yes, Salvador Dali, I think, started his career by basically saying the consciousness is very fluid, very continuous, and then towards the end of his life he thought it was very discreet.

Ray Peat: Probably, yeah. He fell into the fascist DNA mentality. He got rich by doing it.

Georgi: Do you think serotonin and melatonin are necessary for dreaming?

Georgi: UNTRANSCRIBED ... To calm down the nightmares of people with post-traumatic stress disorder, but it doesn't eliminate their dreams.

Ray Peat: Yeah, my first experiences with ciproheptadiene were to improve my breathing at night and over the first two or three nights I was getting a good sleep because of the the relieved bronchitis, but after about five nights... I started having weirdly intense dreams that I think was the changing balance of serotonin and histamine, and so I stopped taking it for a while, and when I returned to taking it, I found that I had become about ten times more sensitive to it. It did something building up. So that I didn't need it after about five days, but in the process, it let loose something in the dream apparatus that made them disturbingly random and intense.

Georgi: Do you think the nightmare seen in people with severe trauma is basically maybe some kind of a defense mechanism of the body because since these people have very highly elevated serotonin? The body synthesizes more melatonin to lower the levels of serotonin and the excess melatonin causes these nightmares Because melatonin is known in high doses to cause really disturbing and bizarre dreams

Ray Peat: Yeah, that sounds reasonable

Georgi: Okay

Host: Is that all yeah georgie sorry i'm like having ptsd from our connection keeps dipping a little bit but i'm following along I was going to ask gray about the um uh symbols of an alien guy so i know i read ray i know you're not an expert on it and i david talbot and um uh wallace uh walth thornhill those are i i mean i'm assuming those are the some of the people that originated this idea but i did want to ask you like a vert in a vernadsky and sense if what they're talking about in saturn and venus and mars created some kind of amazing electrical confirmation uh thousands of years ago like and it blocked out our sun How would that have changed? um

Host: Well, how would that have changed like evolution in us like if we didn't have the heat source of the sun Radiating down on the planet

Ray Peat: And and the changing magnetic fields I think our brain development Is very susceptible to the weak magnetic fields of the earth and and those are changed by events on the Sun. Velikovsky and several other people have theorized that it was these solar system events that created the great religious myths, stories of the flood and so on, being actual historical memory of interactions, a spark.

Ray Peat: Uh, uh, passing between Venus and earth, for example,

Host: uh, like they, I mean, they call it, uh, the, the, the great period, do you think, uh, but, uh, well, I guess I, I could be not miss, uh, not understanding, but in the vernacular sense of the sun is like a central to the evolution and the complexifying nature of throwing energy into a system would, would Saturn. Be that or the Venus would that have taken the role of our sun and besides the magnetic fields, the heat being thrown at the Earth would that have been that could have led to some superior evolution of humans and interactions and things or or what.

Ray Peat: Have you ever read the, the guy that intended to debunk. Astrology and ended up confirming that he could see effects of the five heavy planets or the five nearby planets, not Mercury, but the biggest and closest planets showed an influence on personalities according to their birth time.

Ray Peat: Michel Gauquelin. He was the French guy who wanted to debunk it. Oh, cosmic clocks.

Host: Cosmic clocks,

Ray Peat: yeah.

Host: Okay, so those planets being in very close proximity would have changed everything. Is that right to say?

Ray Peat: Yeah, our time, the actual passage of time, and... intensity of chemical reactions, everything influenced by gravitational fields, the concentration of neutrinos, that was Horace Dudley's ideas that could explain the Michelson-Morley aether drag, that if neutrinos have a taste for associating with mass, then they tend to form a gradient getting more concentrated towards the center of the Earth and dropping off at high altitudes, and so when Miller took his apparatus up either to higher mountains or put it into holes in the ground, deep basements, he found less drag at high altitude.

Ray Peat: And more drag in the basements consistent with Dudley's idea that the neutrino sea constitutes the luminiferous ether that used to be in the textbooks.

Host: I mean, if this is if their hypothesis is right, this seems like the most important thing ever like imaginable. I mean, is that overstating things like what what could be like it explained so much about human history. It just seems like it's a it's so central to understanding everything.

Ray Peat: Yeah, I exchanged a few letters with Horace Dudley and asked his opinion on what he thought about crystal domains and being resonant. Key's resonance factors for neutrinos and that the crystalline nature of the earth would be the crystals that they were attracted to as well as the mass and he agreed that that seemed reasonable but he hadn't mentioned it himself.

Ray Peat: I ran across a clipping by a physicist who had put radioactive carbon isotopes in fatty acid, incorporated into fatty acids and showed that in the test tube they produced the perfect normal or random nuclear decay, which is... the principle that everything, nuclear power reactors, are based on the absolute randomness of decay.

Ray Peat: But when he put a drop of this, let it form a monolayer on aluminum foil, he then recorded non-random decay, showing that something as... a force as weak as the crystalline-like surface of a metal, would allow the... some energy to store up and then hit the atoms in a non-random, intermittent fashion, and corresponded with Dudley, he said that crystalline interaction with neutrinos seemed reasonable, but he hadn't talked about it, but he was warning that we don't know enough about the factors that cause nuclear decay, and in the ignorance of what actually is causing the nuclear decay being a interaction with a neutrino, he... warned that nuclear bombs and nuclear reactors might not obey their assumption of random nuclear disintegration.

Ray Peat: And I went to look up Anderson's article, the physics guy who put the fatty acid oil on aluminum, and I found it. Anderson had published his article in the very week, the same journal, in which Dudley was warning against the dangers of non-random fission in nuclear reactors. And neither of them was aware of the other, but both came up to a similar conclusion that they were not aware of the dangers of non-random fission in nuclear reactors.

So I went to look up the article, and I found it in the very week, the same journal, in which Dudley was warning against the dangers of non-random fission in nuclear reactors. And neither of them was aware of the dangers of non-random fission in nuclear reactors. Nuclear disintegration is not a random event. Have you seen the news over the last two or three years that they found that the intensity of the Sun's magnetic field influences the apparent randomness of the radioactive decay?

Ray Peat: No, I haven't heard that, but that's the same idea that weak forces in the environment are not... trivial or are not absolutely irrelevant to nuclear decay just because of the high energy it takes for a physics person to cause fission, nature undoubtedly has many alternative routes to creating disintegration.

Georgi: So they didn't warn about spontaneous going off of nukes and reactors, but they did raise an issue with the reliance of biology and archaeology on dating archaeological artifacts by using the carbon 14 dating. They said that's not reliable.

Ray Peat: Anderson in particular got involved in that and that whole thing. Creationist people were also challenging carbon dating and so that was a further problem for Anderson's reputation that he was talking about things that the creationists were interested into.

Georgi: Okay.

Ray peat: Are you familiar with the natural nuclear reactor that exists in Gabon in Africa?

Ray Peat: No.

Georgi: Apparently, I mean, if you Google it, you'll find it. But the reason I'm bringing this up is that the archaeologists found that there's been a nuclear reactor that apparently, if we believe the carbon dating, it's been sitting there and periodically creating mini nuclear explosions every couple of hundred years. And they think it's at least 100,000 years old, if not more. And they were kind of worried. The article that I read is that well, if this nuclear reactor is capable of spontaneously going off, what does that mean for our man-made nuclear reactors? It was a pretty interesting article. But if you Google Gabon nuclear reactor on Google, the Wikipedia page will come up immediately.

Ray Peat: That sort of thing must be suppressed. It will destroy all of the existing assumptions of physics.

Georgi: Do you think that's one of the major reasons not to pursue nuclear power, is that despite the assurances we're getting, the evidence, the trail of evidence that we have, like the Three Mile Island, the Chernobyl and all the others, Fukushima, shows that these things tend to end badly, no matter how controlled they are?

Ray Peat: Yeah. If you're familiar with a variety of physics professors. You can get an idea of how rigidly dogmatic they are about their assumptions. When there was evidence of cold fusion, for example, they practically foamed at the mouth in saying what an awful thing that was to propose cold fusion. It just caused their brains to undergo. spontaneous reactions.

Georgi: They did ruin the careers of those, I think, those three original scientists that proposed it in the 70s, if I'm not mistaken.

Ray Peat: Yeah, Dudley warned me not to talk about any of these things if I was not financially independent. He said he retired from the Navy and had a pension he could live on. I didn't dare to talk about such things.

Georgi: Wow. Do you think that there have been civilizations on Earth that have been more, let's call them knowledge advanced. I don't like the word technology and science, but like that have been more in tune with nature and being capable of feats such as building the pyramids, you know, in Egypt or like the ones in Mexico and whatnot, because those don't seem to be possible even with modern technology.

Ray Peat: Um, all right. Yeah, yeah. There is intelligence popping up everywhere. My favorite old civilization was the one that made those giant round heads in Mexico. They were so intelligently designed and sculpted that they weren't archaic looking anatomically like the Egyptian sculptures.

Georgi: Were those the Aztecs or not?

Ray Peat: No, they were Olmecs, I think they associate them with.

Georgi: Okay, the reason I'm asking is because there are examples all over the world of artifacts that don't seem to be possible, especially, there's one even in Florida, there's a guy who was an immigrant to the United States, I think he came originally from Latvia. Um. And he single-handedly built this castle using, using, uh, limestone blocks. There were, I think each one of them, like, they were like 10 tons each. And, and in the early 20th century, there was just no technology that would allow this person to be able to add. And, you know, of course there are many myths about this, but what, what do you think could be the explanation? His, his own writings are very cryptic. And he said that he thought that, you know, he claimed that he discovered that there is a nature of magnetism. That is unlike anything that the official science books are saying, so he was capable of levitating these stones and moving them around. Do you think there's any possible truth to that, or do you think it's completely bogus?

Ray Peat: No, I'm open to all kinds of alternative interpretations.

Georgi: Do you think if humanity is allowed to develop spontaneously without any authoritarian......influence, we will be able to resolve most of our pressing problems pretty quickly?

Ray Peat: Yeah. As soon as an interesting idea pops up in a university or a corporation, it's likely to be destroyed before the person can talk to a reasonable number of informed people. And so if you stop shooting down... all of the interesting alternative ideas, things would necessarily multiply realistic possibilities exponentially.

Georgi: You were born in the 30s. Do you remember even during childhood a time when, let's say, in the United States or at least the Western world, it was a more freer time, I guess, more freer period?

Ray Peat: Oh yeah, I was... Old people at the time were always talking about how awful things are getting, but just from the late 30s to the late 40s, I saw a horrible increase in authoritarianism. And the 1950s was when it really took off with full government support. To cleanse the high schools and universities of descending thinking in physics, biology, politics.

Georgi: Do you think there may be a natural factor that may have contributed to that? Such as changes in solar activity or maybe even intergalactic changes that would contribute to this increase in evil over the last 100 years?

Ray Peat: No, I think it's the accumulation of power. In the ruling class, I think we can see all of the links, like Hitler accumulated power from American, British and French banking institutions, and the defeat of Germany was really the universalization of the structure of evil he had constructed. His intelligence apparatus was taken over by the CIA, so Hitler himself lost, but the project continued. The same bankers that created Hitler collaborated with the CIA. To continue the project that's that's why there was such a burst of evil with the year that the CIA was born. That was when Lamarckism was rooted out of all of the schools in the United States.

Georgi: Do you see power as a concept that's something akin to glycolysis and intelligence something akin to oxidative phosphorylation? So power is a very effective but very brutal way to do things but at the cost of basically completely destroying intelligence.

Ray Peat: Yeah, energetically it's like cancer. It runs very fast but very stupidly.

Georgi: So it's basically in a very inhospitable environment. It's indispensable to survival but that's about it. It doesn't really have any other evolutionary usage.

Ray Peat: Yeah. Have you seen the article about Klaus Schwab, starting with his being born in 1938 in Germany, and having assimilated in his formative first seven years the ethos of Nazism? All of his talking points are a continuation of Hitlerism, the same way that Conrad Lorentz, with his genetic determinism, was amplified with the defeat of Germany rather than suppressed. So all of the eugenics people came into a... a world that was designed around all of the principles of gene determinism or eugenics.

Host: I was watching one of James Corbett's video and he said the World Economic Forum was kind of making like a power move among the elite people, like maybe to establish dominance, like even more than the Bilderbergers and the trilateral commissions and the CFR type of people and they're... they're apparently extremely organized. Do you think there's any truth to that?

Ray Peat: Yeah, I think the World Economic Forum has taken over right along with the CIA and the top biggest banks. The Gates Foundation is one of their tools. I think the brain of the system is between the World Economic Forum and the CIA.

Host: Because I just don't remember hearing about Klaus for the last like, maybe I'm just totally ignorant, which is a real possibility, but I just don't remember hearing about him very much through all the so-called conspiracy channels.

Ray Peat: No, he was very open for the last five or six years. He's been saying all of these horrible things, we need more genetically modified organisms to completely take over the food economy. Everything has to be made artificial.

Host: And then where does Eric Schmidt sit in that? Is he just an idea person that the World Economic Forum has taken a hold of his specific thoughts?

Ray Peat: Yeah, I think he's on the level of the Gates Foundation. He's a tool of the American digital community.

Host: And then, I mean we've said it multiple times, but this whole thing is so the elite will never be challenged again. Like they'll dog-tag everyone and then their power will be set for, I'm sure they think, forever.

Georgi: Is there anybody who is warning the elite, sorry to interrupt, that there must be other people that have made the parallel, if not with glycolytic cancer, at least to the fact that after power concentration passes through the threshold, empires tend to collapse. Empires must be aware of that, or at least historically they must have seen what's happening after you become really, really too powerful. There's no one else, no one left to fight. And that's what seems to trigger sometimes the collapse of the empires. Is there anybody warning the empire, the current empire, saying, look, we do need a little bit of intelligence, we shouldn't be crushing every last living free spirit around the world because that will be the end of us as well?

Ray Peat: No, I don't think they see that.

Host: It's funny Gates is saying we need to vaccinate 7 billion people, but isn't there like 7.8 or 7.5 billion people?

Georgi: And he's not including himself in that number. That's why.

Host: So, I mean, while we're on this topic, is there any more to say about what's happened in a month, Ray, like the developments and all the secret contracts and the Operation Warp Speed being apparently largely a military operation? Is there anything else of note that we should touch on?

Ray Peat: Um, no. The lawyers who are getting organized to sue governments and demand release of the information that they based their shutdown on. If the courts have any autonomous function, that's going to be continuing to get more interesting.

Host: But it's funny because I, when you sent me that video that was, um, what's it called? Scroll up here. It's, um, uh, crimes against humanity by Reiner, a full, full Mitch and that video had, I mean, it wouldn't have a million views or something, but I have it, I put it in the note, the notion document that I was going to use to collect all the notes for this episode. And right now I'm staring at like a dead video. Like it was taken off YouTube. And so that's, that's very encouraging the censorship that we're now dealing with. What, what, what specifically about that? You might've just addressed it, but what, what specifically about that, do you think there's some kind of inroad to change through the law system?

Ray Peat: Yeah, it's, it's a win in court. It's going to get some attention. Like, was it Minnesota where they got a court decision against the governor?

Georgi: Michigan. Michigan, Michigan. The governor was Michigan.

Ray Peat: Oh yeah.

Host: There's a funny meme going around. It's like the founding fathers of the constitution and it says, just in case anybody, I'm going to screw this up, but it's like, just in case anybody needs to know, all of this doesn't matter in case there's a virus. So it's like. All these constitutional rights disvanish instantaneously when the WHO declares a pandemic apparently and so very very interesting.

Georgi: I wanted to raise a point about the vaccines and the military being involved. I don't know if you're aware, but there's a federal law which basically mandates that the National Health Service, which is actually technically part of the military, is always involved in any vaccine trial. And sometimes their involvement is classified. Do you know anything about that Ray?

Ray Peat: Involved in every what?

Georgi: In every vaccine trial.

Ray Peat: Oh, that's true that they are a branch of the military establishment. Their only difference is that they aren't weapons user. Someone from another branch of the government, if they want to have weapons when they visit you.

Georgi: Right. I mean, I was reading a few blogs and apparently a lot of this is classified, but the reason they're involved is, officially at least, that's the official reason, is that because of that vaccine injury program that the Health and Human Services runs, apparently that's also, so the military says, look. We need to be involved as well, and that's the National Health Service is apparently mostly involved with reviewing the claims and determining if there's any national security threat to any of that. So that's the official reasoning, but the, like, there have been some declassified documents that suggest that the military is actually actively looking at every vaccine trial and trying to glean information if this could become like another bioweapon. So they're getting access to all the medical records to everything that happens in that vaccine trial.

Georgi: And sometimes, of course, this is all in the area of speculation, even if a vaccine is known to be dangerous and ineffective, the military will push for it to be released because they will think it can become an effective weapon in the future if it's only slightly modified so they can turn it against a foreign country.

Ray Peat: Yeah, they've um been throughout history of the 20th century. They've been operating a biological weapons establishment, researching it and it periodically becomes public. I think the reason the news around 2015 started coming out of how sloppy they were, thousands of jazz musicians playing all over the world. Potentially dangerous leaks of engineered viruses that were designed to be specifically infective to humans and more toxic symptoms produced than the wild virus. This information, it had been leaking out slowly.

Ray Peat: About five years ago, they started letting out more publicity about how dangerous this program was, and that led to the moratorium, which led to Fauci taking some of the programs outside the country to China, for example. But there are... germ warfare labs operated by the U.S. in several countries of Europe and Africa, as well as China. So they're outside the U.S. jurisdiction. But I think the fact that we got so many leaks appearing suddenly was specifically part of the program, the Rockefeller Foundation, Gates Foundation, and World Economic. Forum were working on this planned creation of a panic, and as part of getting the public to panic, it's very effective to let information leak out that these super-dangerous engineered viruses might have been leaking all along for several years.

Ray Peat: They were basically sending a message to China that they might actually be ready to return to biological warfare against China with one of these super dangerous viruses. China already in the Korean War had experience with American attempts at biological warfare.

Ray Peat: Wilfred Birchert was the journalist who was following that and interviewing the people in China and Korea who had experienced the drops of the various organisms. So I think it was sending a message to China to help to create the environment. For declaring the pandemic. They knew they were going to declare a pandemic years in advance, and it helped to give it realism by having these press releases.

Georgi: So why would China even agree to have a U.S.-led laboratory or even work in tandem with the U.S. to create these viruses, considering that some of them very likely may be turned against China, you know, may be used in a future attack against China?

Ray Peat: I think they were hoping that... they would have more knowledge of what the threat was, if they were actually participating in it.

Georgi: OK, so it's a form of like voluntary economic espionage. China said keep your enemies closer, right? Get the US on our territory to do that work and we can learn what they're doing and potentially be ready to protect ourselves and also maybe develop even something better.

Ray Peat: Yeah, but I... I doubt that they realized that these plans had been going on for years to create the pandemic or to declare the pandemic, but they took all the necessary precautions in case it was a dangerous germ warfare agent, but then within just two or three months, they Right in Wuhan, they were celebrating holidays in gigantic public assemblies.

Ray Peat: There's a picture on the internet of hundreds and hundreds of people crammed into a giant swimming pool. Right at the peak of the pandemic here in the United States, these people were a thousand or so together standing. Two or three feet apart.

Georgi: So a couple of things. So you think basically China, first of all, realized that this virus is not what, of course, the propaganda is trying to make it out to be. And they basically now they're fully open. Is that why you think China reopened? They realized it's a false flag?

Ray Peat: Yeah, I think they realized this was gone about May and they reopened everything.

Georgi: So how do you think the U.S. public, a significant portion of the U.S. public and, I don't know, a significant portion of Europe, Western world in general, how can they look at China being fully reopened and several other countries as well and still believe that we need to go into a lockdown and there's a surge here and all these masks and all the other measures are necessary considering the Chinese are having the times of their lives right now?

Ray Peat: I think they're just so confident that they've... done a thorough brainwashing job, controlling the media now for 77 years total control.

Georgi: I've never seen... I haven't seen a single article in the popular press that said, hey, look, China is fully open. How come they're open and we're not? This has never been brought up to my knowledge in any of the major newspapers in the United States or Western Europe.

Ray Peat: Yeah, they can get away with... saying that everything coming out of China is fake because they're a communist country, even though they're nominally communist, they're the world's biggest capitalist economy.

Georgi: Right.

Host: Okay.

Georgi: Speaking of the vaccine, did you see the news about every, what is it, three out of four phase three trial vaccines had a serious adverse event? In two of them, people died. And the third one was transverse myelitis, which is the media's euphemism for polio. So I thought like, oh, how convenient. Maybe the reason they don't want to call it a polio is because then people will start asking the question of, was the polio epidemic in the 50s caused maybe by like one of these engineered or vaccines gone rogue?

Ray Peat: Yeah. And have you seen the figure showing that the very year the vaccine came out and the polio incidence of cases suddenly dropped off? The other things such as myelitis and Guillain-Barré syndrome, other types of very similar paralytic diseases skyrocketed back up to the level that had been seen in polio epidemics.

Georgi: So the same thing as with the flu. The flu cases have disappeared today. But the COVID ones are spiking.

Ray Peat: Yeah, one thing disappears when they rename it something else.

Georgi: Well, what do you think is causing the polio? Do you think it's a viral disease, or do you think it's just a toxicity symptom in a severely hypothyroid person?

Ray Peat: Starting early in the 20th century, people were noticing that polio epidemics appeared first in history. In the countries in which the medical profession decided to become up-to-date and do things that verbalists weren't allowed to do by injecting all of their drugs, the hypodermic needle had been invented just 10 or 20 years before the first polio. epidemic and doctors started injecting all sorts of drugs and people started noticing that the paralytic polio cases, practically all of them had previously been injected with something, if not a vaccine, other drugs, and all through the... early part of the 20th century, it was actively discussed that the fact showed that the arm or the leg which was paralyzed happened to be the arm or leg in which the some injection had taken place.
Ray Peat: Usually a vaccine but any injection can be associated with paralysis in that particular limb and that was by 1950 that was being seriously investigated and in Africa it is now pretty well recognized that the paralyzed limb is the one in which the child had the polio vaccine injection.

Georgi: Have you seen the case studies on PubMed?

Ray Peat: Go ahead. Animal experiments showed that injecting an irritant into the muscle sends signals to the brain indicating......inflammation and damage and they could create paralytic localization according to where they injected something. So animal experiments confirmed the observations in humans.

Georgi: Have you seen the published case studies on PubMed showing that the compromised gut barrier can cause Guillain-Barre syndrome in many of these paralytic states? that we've seen also with vaccines? So basically what I'm what I'm getting at is that endotoxin apparently on endotoxin overload can can trigger temporarily such paralysis in limbs and sometimes even mimic the symptoms of stroke and if I'm not mistaken for a long time endotoxin also known as lipopolysaccharide was used as an adjuvant in the vaccines. Do you know if it's still used?

Ray Peat: I only accidentally It's in a lot of the vaccines silently. They don't list it as an ingredient naturally, but it's there because of the general contamination of the culture medium.

Georgi: Do you think the aluminum that has replaced the lipopolysaccharide as an adjuvant, do you think it can trigger some of the same symptoms, the paralytic symptoms?

Ray Peat: Yeah, it's very powerful. Some of the aluminum shows up in the brain. An English professor has done a lot of research on that and produced very consistent convincing results that the aluminum is reaching the brain and causing a variety of symptoms.

Georgi: So basically, don't get the vaccine, right? Because it's definitely going to have at least aluminum in it.

Ray Peat: Yeah, yeah. I think a lot of them do have the endotoxin.

Host: Speaking of vaccines and the polarization in our society, maybe a good segue like the physiology of being offended. And as I was exploring that question, I think, right, you initially referenced it in one of your articles, the Paul Andrews paper. Is serotonin an upward or downer? And he says, and in summary, the melancholic brain appears to be reconfiguring to learn solutions to complex problems. The processes involved in this learning appear to be so energetically expensive that growth and reproduction are down regulated. And we argue that the process involved in making these trade-offs are coordinated by serotonin.

Host: And so vaccines are conversations about Stalin, like a lot of things that. Seriously rile people up. Is there a certain physiology with kind of this, like, intense anger of, like, what is happening when somebody is kind of violently reacting to an idea that they don't like?

Ray Peat: It does activate, especially serotonin, probably histamine too. And that... undoubtedly is increasing their intestinal permeability, vascular permeability, all through the system. I sort of hoped that some of my comments about Lisenko were...maybe were causing strokes of some of the fanatics.

Georgi: You were hoping?

Host: Is it because the culture gives so few resources to find meaning, and so people integrate these ideas within themselves, and then if they encounter something that doesn't fit, it causes some kind of intense physiological reaction?

Ray Peat: Oh, yeah. It's like slandering their mother. Same sort of reaction of blind fury.

Host: And then you said it on one of our older podcasts, but if you don't feel good, you're aging or you're degenerating. And I thought that was even though that might be kind of obvious, but I thought that was important to emphasize. Like if you're not in the euphoric state, there's something wrong.

Ray Peat: Yeah.

Georgi: Have you seen the studies that they've mostly done on animals that mitochondrial dysfunction, in other words, low metabolism, basically ensures that the animal will......assume a subordinate status, while at the same time becoming extremely aggressive to anything that it dislikes in its environment. So basically it's the symptom of low energy that maybe because the animal feels that any change, any novelty, it cannot really cope with, it cannot really incorporate into its worldview, and that's why it's becoming aggressive, but it comes down to essentially mitochondrial dysfunction.

Ray Peat: And the typical authoritarian personality. A subservient to power, but vicious towards underlings.

Georgi: Yeah, that's exactly what those studies found, that it was the most vicious animal. So there was an alpha rat that they created artificially. That's the other thing. Those studies were interesting because they showed that this whole thing about the alpha male is actually an almost entirely artificial concept. It only occurs when you place animals in a situation where they have to fight for food for survival. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. As long as you provide them with ample food then the structure becomes much more egalitarian even in species where they claim there's always an alpha person.

Ray Peat: Yeah. Had we talked about James Prescott's old article in the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists on pleasure and the origins of violence?

Georgi: I haven't heard it, but maybe you've talked about it with Danny.

Host: Yeah, I'm familiar with it, right?

Ray Peat: He looked at, I think it was 80-some anthropological studies. He was working in one of the NIH branches as a psychologist. And he saw that it was an invariable pattern, that an authoritarian culture in which males were very high in the hierarchy, women and children were mistreated and low in the hierarchy, and so on, there was always some kind of... bodily mutilation could be scarring or distortion of the ears or lips or circumcision, but these features, hierarchy, cruelty, and mutilation went with a warlike policy, and long before Prescott published this article, which got him fired.

Ray Peat: An Oxford professor had looked at the earlier literature and came up with exactly the same conclusions, but he said sexual repression was necessary to create culture. He said all of these things, the energetic society that created an empire. By making war against weaker powers, this required sexual repression and so he had exactly the same conclusion, but he, being an English professor in Oxford, concluded that that was a good stuff, empire and dominance and hierarchy.

Host: I think he advocated for like Japanese style bathrooms and kind of a more liberal view towards like nakedness and things and I thought that was interesting and when that was distorted, like you just said, like there were all sorts of weird things that would develop.

Ray Peat: Yeah, the guy that didn't play at Harvard. And got fired for it, called anti-Semitic, because he argued that circumcision was a power institution to make sex unsatisfying for the men and to make them authoritarian personalities.

Georgi: And also to induce this feeling of subordination from a very early age, right?

Ray Peat: Yeah, that you were subject to mutilation.

Georgi: Yeah, some of your most precious organs, which I guess in an impressionable little child would be even more traumatic.

Ray Peat: Yeah.

Georgi: Do you think that the opposite could also be used to militarize the culture? In other words, the encouragement of extreme sexual promiscuity?

Ray Peat: Yeah, I think so. You know, Wilhelm Reich. Made that argument that denaturing sex was behind the commercialization of sex, taking the love out of it, made it mechanical and basically biologically unsatisfying.

Georgi: So it's akin to the mutilation of the circumcision, but mentally?

Ray Peat: Yeah.

Georgi: Okay. Do you see some of that in our culture? These days? Because I certainly do.

Ray Peat: Yeah. The FDA burned all of Reich's books, including the Mass Psychology of Fascism, which he said was based on sexual control.

Georgi: Yeah.

Ray Peat: They were burned as medical devices.

Host: Ray, I did want to... It's kind of in the same vein, but to somebody you said the use of non-communicative jargon can be an indication of a personality disorder, and I thought that I, one, I think I know who you're talking about, and then two, that is so common, like in the health world and the authoritarian world, like what is...is that a form of like protection from the self or something? Like what's...

Ray Peat: They would be embarrassed to admit their total ignorance of a particular thing, and so they babble out some words that are completely idiotic, but they assume that no one is going to understand what stupid thing they just said because it was based on Latin words.

Host: Well, like the Dunning-Kruger effect, one, do you buy into that concept and then... there's certainly, if that's a valid concept, there's certainly some kind of physiology associated with it, correct?

Ray Peat: Yeah, authoritarianism is why doctors don't have to think about what they're doing.

Host: And high serotonin being associated with that?

Ray Peat: Yeah, and they are the real doctors who think about what they're doing. They are dropping out of the profession because the extent to which it's being taken over by the powers wanting to make everything an algorithm, like Cuomo in New York wants to digitize medicine, do away with personal contact with your doctor.

Host: What what like even the sick, high serotonin person, when they do defect from kind of the the the status quo, what what exactly is what exactly is happening physiologically like is there some kind of break or what like you've called it something like the navigating the orienting reflex or something is that for a moment activated based on like discordant information or something like what do you think's happening there?

Ray Peat: Yeah, when the orienting reflex kicks in, you're redesigning your whole organism to some extent. And so it can be a turning point in your life.

Host: But that's I'm hesitant to say it's random. Like what? How does what initiates that, especially for a person that has so much to lose?

Ray Peat: I really don't know.

Host: This is some kind of life experience or a story that no longer makes any sense, right?

Ray Peat: Yeah. Yeah.

Georgi: Well, I have a question. Do you know approximately when the replacement of incandescent light bulbs in hospitals happen? And what do you think that that may have coincided a little bit with the increase of authoritarianism and psychopathic among the medical profession just being exposed to blue lights like 24 a.m.?

Ray Peat: People started talking about it already in the 50s. John Ott, you know, who created the Ott light, the full spectrum light, emphasized that all of the wavelengths falling not only on your skin but getting into your eye, that the full spectrum light can restore lots of degenerative. problems. Arthritis was his first experience with it.

Ray Peat: And all of that was going on already in the 1950s when fluorescent lights became popular.

Georgi: But that thought seems to have been long lost. I mean, I haven't seen anything bringing up. Well, actually, there was an article about maybe three years ago that said fluorescent lights may give you a headache, but that's about it. I mean, all these ideas of them being much more dangerous seem to be forgotten.

Ray Peat: Yeah. Some of Ott's experiments showed that weak X-rays were being produced at the ends of the tubes and that that was part of the toxic effect.

Georgi: Did you...

Ray Peat: Land foil around the ends of the tubes, he found, made them less toxic.

Georgi: I think also the plastic, which has become utterly pervasive in our lives, but especially in hospitals, there was a study two years ago that showed that simply peeling off scotch tape produced by the company 3M, but they said it could be anyone, produced actually full blown x-rays and they were able to take a picture of the finger of one of the researchers against a photosensitive film. But just peeling off scotch tape against that finger of the person.

Georgi: And they opined that basically, if you essentially create a sufficient charge in any plastic object, and then create a discharge, then you can basically create x-rays on demand. They're relatively weak, but still very dangerous. And I keep thinking that, you know, when I... me and my wife were going to the hospital just to get examined for the baby with the ultrasound, like the x-ray technicians kept getting these static shocks off of the equipment all the time. And at the time, I didn't know that they were maybe potentially creating x-rays, but it seems to be a pretty common thing in the hospital. Plastics are everywhere and static electricity gets discharged all the time. So do you think that may play a role as well?

Ray Peat: Oh, oh, sure. The, um... People have devised various ways to stop that effect in plastic, but I don't know how well applied they are.

Georgi: Do you think the plastic may also, I mean, so I guess the endocrine disrupting effect also plays a role in the pathologizing of the hospital environment?

Ray Peat: Yeah, a lot of the plastics are still emitting. Toxic chemicals too.

Georgi: Is there any type of safe plastic in your opinion or are they all capable of essentially discharging estrogenic thyroid inhibiting substances?

Ray Peat: I don't know anything toxic about the polyethylene type plastic.

Georgi: Okay.

Host: Alright. I wanted to get into the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system, but I don't know if we'll have enough time to do that subject justice. So maybe we could talk about Mexican Coke.

Georgi: Right there.

Host: So Ray, since living here for, yeah, Georgie has one on hand. Since living here, I've noticed that children and adults are frequently carrying the leader bottles of Coke all the time, you know? And I think it tastes completely different, like the Mexican Coke versus anywhere else I've had it. But I think, I wanted to talk about this because eight years ago, I think we were talking to somebody on a podcast, and they asked you like, oh, what did you eat yesterday? And you're like, oh, a steak and some coffee and some milk and a Coke. And to my, like, 2012 or 2011 brain, that, like, it exploded it because that was such a non-traditional item in, like, a... so-called health person's nutrition.

Host: And so I don't know if talking about it would yield some other insights and might open up other people to why something like Mexican Coke would be useful in our current situation of kind of horrendous environment. And so I don't... do you feel like defending Mexican Coke or what is your thought on that?

Ray Peat: Yeah, I think Sucrose has a great... virtues therapeutically. I've heard stories about fatally apparently injured animals and people who were in the hospital with hopeless symptoms being given a mouthful. In the case of an animal in shock, they would pour a mouthful of honey in its mouth. and hold its mouth shut, and in a few minutes the animal would be up, not dying at all. And that has happened to dogs and sheep and ducks and all sorts of animals, as well as patients who were in the hospital in a hopeless condition.

Ray Peat: Someone slipped them a jar of honey and gave them a tablespoon of it. And their symptoms disappeared, and dozens and dozens of stories like that convinced me that in an emergency of almost any sort, a good big dose of sucrose is very important. But if you compare just coffee with added sugar, it's a very different experience. Sucrose. I don't think you get quite the effects you do with Mexican Coke. I think the coca leaf extractives are really biologically active, doing something very different from the caffeine content.

Host: Yeah, you know, I have an article here. It says Coke dropped cocaine from its recipe around 1900. But the secret formula is

Ray Peat: that they extract the cocaine from the coca leaf, but sell the remaining stuff to Coca-Cola.

Host: So just to reiterate, the coca leaf extract, it has medicinal anti-inflammatory or anti-stress properties. And then, and then you said you've seen like a mineral analysis and so there's like some nutrition as well to the Coke.

Ray Peat: Yeah, when they compared Pepsi to Coke, Pepsi was high in sodium, so that in Indochina, it was recommended for babies with diarrhea as a sterile source of sodium and sugar. But Coke didn't have nearly that much sodium, but it was very high in potassium. And that you plant extractives are the only logical source for potassium.

Host: And then the chemical for methyl limidazole, that's like brown, similar to the brown that in coffee. Is there any harm to that substance?

Ray Peat: It probably is some harm in it, but it's offset by the other values.

Georgi: Do you think there may be some psychoactive substances in coca leaf outside of the cocaine because it's rarely only one alkaloid or like whatever chemical is there that's just producing all of the effects?

Ray Peat: They know there are several containers of cocaine that are biologically active but they just don't want to talk about it because they might be ordered to take those out too and no one would buy the product.

Georgi: What do you think are the main dangers of cocaine? Is it similar to LSD? Like in higher dosages become serotonergic?

Ray Peat: Yeah, it's such a powerful stimulant. It can make things run at such a high intensity that it destroys the system.

Georgi: But its main stimulant effect, do you think it's happening through the dopamine system or by stimulating metabolism?

Ray Peat: Oh, it somewhat stimulates metabolism but it activates the expenditure of energy so fast that where you can get ahead of the metabolic support system and get sick from taking too much too often.

Georgi: Is that why cocaine was used as a weight loss drug by housewives back in the early 1900s?

Ray Peat: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Probably. It does run the system at a high speed and it's likely to give you vitamin deficiencies and mineral deficiencies for that reason.

Georgi: So similar to dinitrophanol basically?

Ray Peat: Yeah.

Host: Yeah, so just because we'll probably get comments on it, like fresh fruit juice or guava or board. Orange or whatever would be preferable to Coke, but I don't know what is your point of view of kind of the puritanical nutritionism of some groups online like these people that are so obsessed with like nutrients like obviously it's those are it's important but with with them not implementing things like carbon dioxide they're they're not really getting the full picture but what do you think about that?

Ray Peat: The the full picture is the whole thing if you have all of the the nutrients but an imbalance between fats and sugars for example you're working on destroying your mitochondria

Host: And then the individual sleeping next to the router full of the polyunsaturated fats they might be tempted to say like the Mexican coke is harmful when in their specific situation nd it might be the most therapeutic thing they could immediately gravitate to.

Ray Peat: Yeah, the fat people are quick to jump in and say, eat polyunsaturated fats and cut down your sugar intake. But that's the worst advice ever given. It's causing chromosomal injury in millions of. of kids to have parents that have grown up on a high proof of anticyroid situation.

Georgi: I have a question about Pepsi because since you mentioned it and it happens to be on the World Health Organization's list of approved oral rehydration therapies and I think that's why you mentioned that in babies in Asia it's approved or in Africa it's approved as a. Treatment for diarrhea because since they're losing a lot of electrolytes is that right

Ray Peat: you're right

Georgi: is there any? Benefit to Pepsi similar to the coca leaf or is that unique to the to the to the coca product?

Ray Peat: From from the very low potassium content in the analysis I've seen I would guess it doesn't really have a real significant amount of leaf extractives.

Georgi: Okay, so basically it's just essentially sugar with water and caffeine.

Ray Peat: Yeah, sort of what it tastes like too.

Host: I think Mexican Coke tastes like a fine wine, like I think it tastes so good. Anyways, Ray, I did want to ask you about this quote, and again this was kind of part of my intro to you. You said a long time ago in 2011, when people supplement thyroid and eat liver once or twice a week, their acne and dandruff and many other problems usually clear up very quickly. And so I want to emphasize that just because of the kind of simplicity of implementation. And I don't know if you want to talk about that at all, but I thought increasing the metabolic rate while improving the nutrition was kind of like an elegant approach to trying to solve maybe a complex health situation. But doing both of those things seems...

Host: People seem to be resistant to either improving the nutrition or taking thyroid or thinking thyroid is very dangerous or Not like not liking the taste of liver and trying to avoid it

Ray Peat: Yeah, you you can make up for The absence of liver But but it takes a lot of attention to do it Because it's such a rich source of of many of the other luxury nutrients Vitamin A is hard to get enough of in the active animal source of retinol. They're pushing carotene, which is a powerfully anti-thyroid, anti-progesterone agent. So if you try to meet your vitamin A requirements with carrot juice, for example, you're very likely to get... all kinds of metabolic problems, including hormonal deficiencies.

Host: And then last question for me...

Georgi: And lung cancer, which they found out recently beta-carotene from carrot juice or from supplements seems to be drastically increasing the risk of lung cancer.

Ray Peat: Yeah, many, many other bad things too.

Host: Last question for me, then I'll give it to Georgie, then I'll read the super chats and then let you go, right? A few times you said that the Sinoplus tablet is two and a half grains, but I thought it was always three grains. Am I missing something?

Ray Peat: It depends on what your definition of a grain is. The FDA decreed that glandular thyroid has a certain composition, but they apparently haven't bothered measuring. The differences, whether it's pork or beef and where the animal grew up, affects very strongly the composition of the hormone value of the glandular thyroid. And by decree, again, about 50 years ago, they said that 100 micrograms of T4... is equivalent to 25 micrograms of T3, and also by decree, they said that glandular thyroid usually has 3.1 parts of T4 when it's digested to each part of T3. But all of those things are variable according to the particular mineral. So... the most important thing to realize is that that ratio of a hundred micrograms to one microgram of T4 to T3 to 25 micrograms of T3, that ratio is imaginary.

Ray Peat: An ideal male medical student maybe would get results like that. But in the average 35-year-old female... there's no such equivalence at all. A hundred micrograms of T4 very often has anti-virate effects in a middle-aged female. And so T3 has much more value than 4 times the value of T4.

Host: But like a third of a Sinoplus tablet, and I think that weighs out to like 53 milligrams, that would be, you're not objecting to calling that like a grain, right? You're just saying it's very complex, the history of what a grain is and what a grain isn't?

Ray Peat: Yeah.

Georgi: Well, I thought a grain was just a measurement of weight. And then when the FDA got involved in defining how thyroid should look like, the natural desiccated thyroid, they try to kind of like... you know, force the various, the multitude of variations of natural thyroid into the definition of 65 milligrams.

Ray Peat: Yeah, at the beginning of the 20th century, they were still using raw thyroid or cooked, but wet thyroid tissue. And so they talked about the therapeutic dose as being......one or two or three or four grains, the grain being a weight measure, 62 and a half, I think it is, milligrams. And when the armor company and a couple of other smaller companies began dehydrating the product, taking out the 65 or 70 percent water......meant that the de-padded gland was three or four times as effective as the wet gland, simply because of the absence of water.

Ray Peat: And so they added lactose to make up for the water weight, so that their product......doctors who were familiar with the wet gland prescription, in terms of grains of wet fresh gland......they could......go directly to a certain weight grain of the dehydrated product, because the added lactose brought up the weight, so the potency per weight was identical to the fresh gland. But during its development, ARMA was constantly mixing their different batches, recognizing that... one particular batch of dehydrated, de-patted gland would have very different potencies.

Ray Peat: So they would mix them until they could get a product that had the expected potency of fresh gland on mice. All of the batches were standardized for decades, testing them on mice. There was no rigid formula, it was a matter of mixing until they got the right effect. That all went away in the 90s when armor went out of the thyroid business and the FDA took over by proclaiming the content.People came think glandular thyroid actually contained T4 and T3, it doesn't contain those until it's broken down and digested.

Ray Peat: Your digestive system is where the T3 and T4 are formed. So it's misleading to describe the hormonal content at all of an untested glandular preparation.

Host: So just talking about T3 and T4 in micrograms is a lot simpler than the erroneous measurement of grains.

Ray Peat: Yeah. And the Xenoplus is very consistent in how many micrograms of each they put on each tablet.

Host: Understood. Georgie, do you have any last questions that I'll read these super chats and then let Ray go?

Georgi: Yeah, two questions. One of them related to vaccines. I keep getting emails maybe like once a week. And they're usually from people that are, you know, unhappy about our stance on vaccines. They keep saying, okay, you know, we get the point, vaccines are dangerous. They get all these things that can damage your health. And likely, they're likely not even effective because, you know, a well functioning metabolism and a healthy cell is should be able should be capable of defending itself against against the virus, infecting it and starting to replicate. Then they say, well, what about, you know, really deadly viruses that are that basically are guaranteed to kill people unless these people get vaccinated and they keep bringing up the rabies vaccine or the rabies virus? What would you say to that? Right? Like, why? Why does it seem that a rabies virus would kill anybody, including a healthy person with 100% lethality unless they get vaccinated?

Ray Peat: How do they know that?

Georgi: I don't know. I guess, I guess what they don't take into account is how many healthy people got bitten and infected with rabies virus but survived, right?

Ray Peat: Yeah, but lots of people have been bitten by a rabid dog and weren't where they could get treatment or maybe took an herb and were fine. I've known several people who were bitten by an officially tested rabid dog and took a cactus potion or or some herb. They didn't get rabies, so they were convinced that the herb was curative. I think it was just their natural tendency not to contract rabies.

Georgi: Is there any feature of viruses, ovary or whatever the plural is, that would make them more or less lethal, depending on which system they tend to attack?

Ray Peat: I suppose there would be a difference between chicken pox and smallpox, the nature of the sort it produces, and herpes, for example. They just have the type of cell they favor to live in or reproduce in, but some people are innately. immune to those, even though they don't have antibodies against them, their whole system just isn't compatible with the properties of the virus.

Georgi: So I guess all other things being equal, things like maybe if the virus, like the herpes virus tends to attack the nervous system, there's a more potential for, you know, a more serious outcome, all other things being equal.

Ray Peat: Yeah, but the better a person's health is. The less they notice having contracted herpes.

Georgi: Okay, so in your view, there's nothing really special about the rabies virus, it's just another fear mongering that says, get yourself vaccinated right now.

Ray Peat: Yeah, there haven't been any studies really that are relevant to human susceptibility.

Georgi: My second question is related to pregnant alone, there seems to be a lot of... talk about that in terms of what's... Many companies claim they have 99.9% pure pregnant alone, but some people report that they get bad side effects of it. And the emails that I got from you seem to indicate that you don't think it's ever the actual pregnant alone that's causing this. It's some kind of a contamination that's in the pregnant alone. Do you have any specific things in mind in terms of contaminants that may cause such reactions considering that the pregnant alone is at least... has been shown to be of such high purity?

Ray Peat: Yeah, that one part per thousand or less, if it's something very active like an estrogenic fragment of a steroid, it takes only a few micrograms of estrogenic substance to cause symptoms like sore breasts or uterine spasms. I started having bad reactions to everything except the old Syntex product, the ones who were the first steroid producers, and developed the very rigid German. chemists in charge, made sure everything was done punctuously, and other products that came on the market, some of them even smelled different, but all of them had a very high chemical purity test, but I started having bad reactions, intestinal inflammation reactions to it.

Ray Peat: So, I pretty much stopped using it about 20 years ago.

Georgi: Do you think it's possible that even a pure pregnenolone, just by sitting in a bag, it may tend to disintegrate over time into some estrogenic substances? Because there are studies showing that bacteria in air can actually metabolize pregnenolone into various estrogens. Yeast can do that too.

Ray Peat: Probably possible.

Georgi: Okay, so what would be a good storage? Just put it in the freezer and keep it at as low temperature as possible?

Ray Peat: Yeah, if you have it from a source and have tested it on oneself and friends and can take a teaspoonful of it with no adverse effects at all. Two or three days, then you're pretty sure it's the real stuff.

Georgi: So maybe a good test for additional test for pregnenolone in addition to the certificate of analysis, which only tests purity, heavy metals, and presence of bacteria, maybe also test for some, you know, some of the well-known estrogenic metabolites?

Ray Peat: I think so.

Georgi: Okay. Yeah, that's actually a good idea. I mean, there aren't that many at least that are known, so a lab should be able to test even if they're in microgram quantities.

Ray Peat: Mm-hmm.

Host: Okey-doke. Let me just read these really quickly. Unfortunately, we won't be able to get to questions because Ray will be here all day, but Fab for 10 euros. Appreciate it, Fab. Thank you. Nick T for another 10 euros. I think. Thank you, Nick. Kathleen, 24.99. Thank you so much, Kathleen. She says thank you. Michelle for $50. Thank you so much, Michelle. He says thank you for an inspiring discussion. Thank you, Michelle. Linda Bell for $5. Harry Burgos for 25. Thank you.

Host: Guys, thank you so much. I will forward these right to Ray, and I think that is it. And so Ray, Georgie, thank you guys so much. Sincerely appreciate it. Ray, any parting words?

Ray Peat: Nope.

Host: And Georgie, any parting words?

Georgi: Just stay safe and keep trying to stay safe.

Host: Yeah, I guess we'll catch up next month after the total insanity that awaits us on November 3rd. So that should be fun. Ray stay safe everybody in the chat and watching this at a future date stay safe. Thank you guys so much We have an amazing audience. Please subscribe on bit shoot Odyssey Which is library or my telegram because um, I just feel like our days on YouTube are probably numbered in some way shape or form And so it's probably imperative that people follow us on other platforms And that is it. Thank you guys so much. Thank you, Ray. Thank you, Georgie. Have a great weekend everybody We'll talk to you guys soon.

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