Andrew: Welcome to this month's Ask Your Herb Doctor. My name is Andrew Murray.
Andrew: For those of you who perhaps have never listened to our shows, which run every third Friday of the month from 7 to 8pm, we are both licensed medical herbalists who trained in England and graduated there with a master's degree in herbal medicine. We run a clinic in Garberville where we consult with clients about a wide range of conditions and we offer alternative medicine and nutritional counselling.
Andrew: Now, this month we want to explore the misconceptions surrounding water retention and the medical advice to avoid salt, as well as the overprescription of diuretics with special reference to toxemia of late pregnancy and the role of inflammation and poor energy reserves as a cause for concern. We're all going to be joined here by Dr. Raymond Peat here in a couple of minutes.
Andrew: But you're listening to Ask Your Urb Doctor on KMUD Garbleville 91.1 FM and from 7.30 until the 8th end of the show, excuse me, at 8 o'clock you're invited to call in with any questions either related or unrelated to this month's topic of salt inflammation and diuretics. The number here if you live in the area is 923 3911 or if you live outside the area the toll free number is 1800. 5 6 8 3 7 2 3 so that's 1 800 km ud rad and this is the uh last show for this year for 2011 and we'll be with you uh back again in 2012
Andrew: okay so uh hopefully dr pete will be with us i think actually it looks like they're still trying to get him on the line here so um this month's show again as i said it's going to be mainly uh looking at the topics of salt avoidance with respect to water retention and opening up that misconception with facts and science supporting the use of salt rather than the avoidance of salt for decreasing water retention and also look at Dr Tom Brewer's research work, pioneering research work on toxemia of late pregnancy.
Andrew: So for those women that are listening, probably a very noteworthy part of the talk. The show will be based on that toxemia, and the things that Dr. Brewer had proved to reduce swelling and actually reduce the actual occurrence of toxemia completely, his diet was very instrumental in making that a new way of looking at toxemia, because pretty much the medical advice for women with toxemia was actually counter-intuitive in many cases.
Andrew: Hopefully Dr. Pete's with us on the show.
Engineer: I do have Dr. Pete, but I just wanted Sarah to reintroduce herself because I kind of mangled that introduction. So if she could do that and then we could get on with the program.
Sarah: Thank you. I was wondering if I, because I couldn't hear my own voice in my ears there. My name is Sarah Johannesson and I'm joining Andrew Murray, Sarah Johannesson-Murray and I'm joining Andrew Murray and we have Dr. Raymond Pete on the line tonight as well.
Engineer: And thank you. And we do have Dr. Pete and here he is. Thank you.
Andrew: Hi Dr. Pete.
Ray Peat: Hi.
Andrew: Okay, so once again Dr. Pete's joining us to illuminate the way, as it were, then through the misconceptions that we so often repeat as truth, so thank you for joining us Dr. Pete. Again, would you please describe your academic and professional background for listeners maybe new to the show who perhaps have never heard your name?
Ray Peat: Oh, I studied biology, physiology at the University of Oregon, and I have taught. Various hormone and nutrition related courses as well as in other fields, psychology and philosophy included.
Andrew: Okay, so your main interests I know have been around the looking into hormones and much of your research has given you new insights into the treatment of many. Many situations and conditions with hormones like progesterone, and pregnenolone, and others.
Andrew: In terms of the... I think perhaps we should start with something like modern diuretics. We come into contact with people that, for one reason or another, are using diuretics to decrease water retention, whether it's......ankles, fingers, or cardiac or water retention, is there any safe diuretics that you know of that are prescription medications in terms of the way that they act?
Ray Peat: Oh, yeah, there are some that are relatively safe, but it's the whole theory behind why they exist that is the problem. Mercury compounds used to be used, but basically they just......kill the kidney cells and let stuff leak out. And they were the common diuretics for a very long time, until the 1950s. New compounds came on the market that had a variety of effects on the kidneys. And it was really the promotion of those that created... an ideology that diuretics are really key to treating heart disease and several other problems such as toximeopregnancy.
Ray Peat: But really I think it's mostly a marketing strategy to orient physiology around making the kidneys leak out more water. The real problem is what causes the water retention and almost anything that seriously injures the organism causes water retention. Like a problem following surgery very often is that the person stops forming urine and a shock. Any very serious sickness is going to in many ways cause the reduced ability to form urine properly. And it's sort of a plumbers approach to physiology to think of just opening up the kidneys and letting the liquid out faster.
Sarah: So from a herbal perspective, dandelion leaf and the root is a little bit less effective than the dandelion leaf, but it works as a diuretic and that's what I thought they had created furosemide from, although then with furosemide I know you have to have a prescription of potassium along with it and dandelion leaf or most green leaves have a lot of potassium so it just kind of works out that you don't need to take potassium if you use dandelion leaf as a diuretic. But would you consider furosemide as a safe diuretic?
Ray Peat: It's got a long history of use and it probably does have an actual beneficial effect on survival, but with almost any leaf extract the potassium and magnesium are going to have a diuretic effect. It's probably safer than the actual function on the kidneys.
Sarah: Oh, that's interesting.
Andrew: Okay, so the inflammation in the first place is the main cause in many cases for the cessation of diuresis and the increase in water retention in the cells through damage.
Sarah: So you're saying that it's much more important to look at what's causing that inflammation trying to get to the root of the problem rather than just prescribe a diuretic.
Ray Peat: Yeah, even before the inflammation there's the energy problem and there's something as simple as drinking too much water in relation to the energy your body is producing. For example... A low thyroid person who can't produce much metabolic energy is very susceptible to drinking too much water and getting a very general disruption of their physiology. A pint or so of water passing suddenly through your stomach to your intestine causes a surge of serotonin release.
Ray Peat: And that's simply... A model of stress or shock in general, anything that shocks you or stresses you, tends to start the same process. But just a surge of water hitting the intestine is enough to increase serotonin, which then stimulates the production of prolactin. And prolactin is associated with water retention. Serotonin itself is... in a direct way. And serotonin increases the production of aldosterone, which produces water retention and inflammation and sets off a chain of reactions that lead to such things as heart failure.
Sarah: And the unfortunate thing is when someone is low thyroid... they're usually very very thirsty all the time anyway so they crave that water and they think they have to have that water in order because they're well they say their body's really craving it
Ray Peat: um yeah it um causes the the tissues to retain water even though they it's passing through them through the kidneys mostly and they aren't producing much evaporation through their lungs or skin but it tends to leak out of their bloodstream into the tissues and produce edema and edema is harmful to all of the tissues in a direct way it turns on a whole anabolic system of shifting away from......oxidative metabolism, activating lipolysis, the release of fatty acids, shifting cell metabolism towards burning fat rather than sugar, imitating diabetes and aging.
Ray Peat: So it's a generalized shock physiology that's involved when cells get waterlogged. It can start with low-thyroid, but it feeds back and makes the low-thyroid problem worse.
Sarah: So that's why you said that even any kind of leaf extract or tea made from a leaf of a plant is going to have minerals in it that help prevent this from happening.
Ray Peat: Yeah,
Sarah: and if you made a cup of tea, you'd sip on it slowly, you wouldn't just drink it down like a pint of water.
Ray Peat: Yeah, and the minerals, it isn't. It's essential that it be magnesium and potassium. Calcium and sodium have many of the same functions, even though each thing has its place in the mechanisms. If you're in shock, you can relieve the symptoms pretty much by taking more of any one of the alkaline minerals. potassium, sodium, magnesium, or calcium. In heart failure and lung inflammation, many of the things that happen with shock or aging or any serious disease, the lungs and the heart tend to get waterlogged and lose function.
Ray Peat: Just giving... A very concentrated salt solution intravenously will relieve the symptoms very often. They've doubled the survival, or cut the mortality rate in half by just giving extra sodium intravenously.
Andrew: Now why... It's a very interesting point that you've just opened up there because that begs the question, why is it so often? That doctors avoid, tell people to avoid salt and why is salt so maligned heavily as a problem element?
Sarah: Especially when they are swelling and then here they're using it in surgery so I mean...
Ray Peat: It really I think got this big boost around 1950 when the diuretics came on the market that they found the diuretics took sodium out at the same time they took water out. And so they said you should get the same effect by restricting the sodium intake. And they applied that to pregnant women and Tom Brewer and some other people wrote about the horrible effects of sodium restriction in pregnancy. Plus using... diuretic. If you combine the two you get more serious effects.
Ray Peat: After I had been reading Tom Brewer's work for a long time, I was seeing similarities between premenstrual syndrome and the toxinia of pregnancy that he had worked on. And I finally... I decided to suggest to young women who are having premenstrual water retention and not having any good results just by stopping their salt intake, I suggested that they follow Brewer's prescription to increase their salt intake when they were having edema water retention problems.
Ray Peat: And to go according to their craving for salt, rather than avoiding the craving. The first person that tried it just had a total avoidance of premenstrual water retention. The very first month she tried it.
Sarah: And how much salt did she...
Ray Peat: Quite a lot.
Sarah: What, like a teaspoon a couple times a day or a quarter teaspoon?
Ray Peat: Shooketh on even a food. Was already salted, she would just add more, lots more onto it and just absolutely stopped right from then on, never had a water retention problem again.
Andrew: I wonder, do you know why or where the mechanism for which doctors will tell you that salt is, you know, it causes, it can increase the risk of stroke, heart attack? And it's just generally very bad for your cardiovascular system, and so people should avoid salt at all costs. So where do you think that mistaken ideology has come from?
Ray Peat: Yeah, David McCarron, 30 or 40 years ago, was studying the issue, and he looked at the figures that the government published that that recommendation was based on. And he thought that if you look at the figures carefully, the people who eat the least salt... had the highest blood pressure. The people who ate the most salt had the lowest blood pressure. And he saw what the figures really showed that led to the misinterpretation, was that low calcium intake was associated with a hypertension.
Ray Peat: And the sodium was really there sort of as an innocent bystander....associated with the calcium deficiency.
Andrew: So you're saying that that calcium deficiency is more responsible for hypertension?
Ray Peat: Yeah, David McCarron, I think, has probably written maybe 150 articles on the subject. I think he was at Stanford or some California university when he started saying it's not high sodium, it's low calcium that causes hypertension. And I think that university invited him to leave.
Andrew: Oh now isn't this, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but am I thinking right when you've mentioned in the past that low calcium intakes cause calcium to leak out of the bones and into the blood and that causes the calcification of the arteries eventually which gives it a hypertension? Is that part of the mechanism?
Ray Peat: Yeah, that's the essential idea. Yeah. So, the low calcium intakes cause the calcium to leak out of the bones and into the blood and that causes the calcification of the arteries. Calcium intake, among other things, increases your parathyroid hormone, which pulls calcium out of your bones and favors its movement into cells of all kinds, and when calcium is taken up by cells, it stimulates them and tends to make them contract, and that's one of the places that... Thyroid and the energy production comes into the question because carbon dioxide produced by the action of thyroid, carbon dioxide keeps calcium out of cells.
Ray Peat: Even if you breathe in a bag and increase your carbon dioxide or take baking soda or whatever, the carbon dioxide... will relax your blood vessels by helping the calcium to move out of the blood vessels and back into the bones.
Andrew: Okay so are you thinking along the lines of even relatively short-term exposure to higher blood levels of calcium and or tissues endothelium picking up the calcium can contribute to that lack of elasticity that will be... Is that more characteristic of high blood pressure and hypertension?
Ray Peat: Yeah. Each of these things sets in motion a whole sequence of events. The low carbon dioxide, which lets calcium get into cells and excite them and tighten up the blood vessels, for example. It's low carbon dioxide also... lets the platelets release their serotonin and the serotonin besides adding to the tension of the blood vessels makes them permeable and leaky so that the water isn't retained in the bloodstream but leaks through into the cells and the cells that are taking up calcium are also taking up water.
Sarah: Basically, 2,000 milligrams of calcium is a really important thing for somebody with hypertension to start implementing into their regime.
Ray Peat: Yeah, and supporting it with the other minerals. The fact that David McCarran looked at showed that this inverse connection between salt and blood pressure, the high salt users....actually had lower blood pressure and one of the things that is involved there is that sodium helps the cell, stimulates the cell to expel calcium. The sodium activates the thyroid function and the thyroid function pushes calcium out of the cell and lets the cell relax.
Andrew: Right, because I know you've mentioned the relaxation effect from thyroid so that's also a direct...
Sarah: I know it's a little bit confusing probably for our listeners with this talking about calcium inside and outside of cells but basically the salt helps to put the calcium where it should be and not being deposited in the your arteries in the cells in your arteries so I'm just trying to make that a little bit more understood there.
Andrew: Okay well it's... you're listening to Ask Your Herb Doctor on KMUD, Garbleville, 91.1 FM. And from 7.30 until the end of the show at 8 o'clock you're invited to call in with any questions either related or unrelated to this month's topic of salt inflammation and diuretics. The number here if you live in the area is 923 3911 or if you live outside the area the toll free number is 1800 KMUD RAD and we're pleased once again to have Dr Raymond Peat to join us and to bring out some of the misconceptions that we all have. The past and one of those misconceptions is that salt is bad for you and salt will increase your heart attack or give you stroke and that salt is not what you need if you've got swelling and edema but actually as we're finding out salt is very important to decrease edema.
Engineer: Now we're going to ask the doctor if he can call back at 923-3911. Area code 707. And I will just put them directly on while I'm reading our underwriters at the bottom of the hour, but doctor if you could call us back at that number I think we can lose the the hiss that we've got behind you. Would that be okay?
Ray Peat: What was the number?
Engineer: Area code 707-923-3911.
Ray Peat: Okay.
Engineer: Okay give us a call and I'm just going to put you directly on and just wait until I'm done reading and then the the herb doctors will be back on.
Ray Peat: Okay.
Engineer: All right. Thank you. All right, everybody. I just want to read our underwriters for partial underwriters for our last hour. .....and I do believe we should have Dr. Ray back on the line here. Dr. Ray are you with us?
Ray Peat: Yes
Engineer: Dr. Ray. All right, so it is 728. You are tuned to KMED Garberville, the only place where you can hear the herb doctor on one Friday a month here. And let's get back with the program.
Andrew: Hi Dr. P. Thanks for doing that. I think there was a pretty bad hiss on the line so hopefully it's going to be clearer now.
Sarah: Yeah, now that sounds much better. Thank you.
Andrew: Yeah, okay good. Okay, so getting back to the diet that Tom Brewer brought about. For the treatment of toxemia of late pregnancy and a diet which actually resulted in none of his hundreds, if not thousands of clients or patients who were pregnant ever getting toxemia. He was very big on drinking quite a bit of milk. It was part of his diet.
Sarah: Well, there's the calcium, keeping the calcium. Also salt and lots of protein, right? Those are the main things that he was suggesting?
Ray Peat: Yeah, he was talking about the protein and adding salt to your food. But the milk has other things besides the protein. The calcium has its direct effect on blood pressure, and the sugar of milk has its diuretic-like action. So the... Calcium and sugar add to the quality of the protein.
Andrew: Now, we talked a little bit about the... we mentioned fruzeimide as a diuretic. Are there any safer, effective diuretics that we wouldn't perhaps think of diuretics, perhaps? If you think of the sequence of stress effects that I mentioned... Too much water leading to too much serotonin and alvastorone and prolactin... Which are all inflammatory.
Sarah: Sorry to interrupt, but those are all inflammatory compounds.
Ray Peat: Yeah, and cause water retention. And if you choose your substances with reference to inhibiting any or all of those... that's going to be an anti-edema, anti-inflammatory diet or treatment. Thyroid and progesterone, for example, lower all of these things. Progesterone is a very powerful antagonist to albostrone. And drugs are being developed to be very similar. to progesterone, but to be patentable, so they can sell them as you treat heart failure and water retention and inflammation and so on.
Sarah: Do they not have the same effect as the progesterone?
Ray Peat: Enough that they all cure heart failure and such, but they have their own side effects. They're just trying to make them as similar to progesterone as they can to minimize the side effects. Using any of the natural steroids derived from pregnenolone, either progesterone or DHEA, will help with water retention and edema and heart failure and so on.
Andrew: Right, and that's because they're antagonizing the effects of aldosterone.
Sarah: Yeah. Aldosterone is causing the inflammation and the water retention.
Ray Peat: Yeah, and aldosterone increases... Besides inflammation, it leads to fibrosis and prolonged heart failure and vascular and kidney disease and so on lead to fibrosis, lung disease, everywhere that water retention and inflammation start, they tend to end up with fibrosis. So, 60 or 70 years ago, a researcher, Lipp Schutze......called Pregnenolone and Progesterone, the anti-fibromatogenic steroids. They start out inhibiting fibrous overproduction and end up protecting against tumors.
Andrew: We do actually have two callers on the line, Dr. Peak, for you, so let's... Take the callers, and I think we'll take the first caller now. The engineer's put his hands in the air as if he's lost them.
Engineer: I lost Dr. Pete. If he can call back, they'll let the caller ask their question, but he won't hear it. Oh, darn it. I'm going to have to call him. All right, but the caller is on.
Andrew: Okay, we'll try calling Dr. Pete back.
Caller: Hello?
Andrew: Hi, caller. You're on the air?
Caller: Yeah, this is Topical. You're just catching on calcium. I don't know if you want to go to specifics, but I'll give you a short story. About nine months ago, I was in ICU for a week and a half because my calcium was crazy. I was later diagnosed with sarcoidosis. And my doctor wants me to get down on my calcium level.
Andrew: So you're saying that your calcium level was high?
Caller: Yes, very high. And it shut down my kidneys, etc, etc. Yeah. That was nine, ten months ago. Once a month I do a calcium level check. Blood test.
Andrew: Do you know what your calcium is? Huh? Do you know what your calcium value is?
Caller: Uh-uh. God, I wish I knew the number. But the problem is he's got me on 15 milligrams of prednisone. Oh dear. To keep my calcium level down. And I love milk. Yeah, well the prednisone I'm sure is because the, uh, as a... I know I hate prednisone. Yeah, it's an anti-inflammatory steroid, so because of the sarcoids and the inflammatory quote...
Caller: So I know that caused the issue, but I think he's using a prednisone to keep the calcium levels down, but the way you talk sounds like calcium levels are a pretty good idea.
Andrew: Well, calcium not in the blood, but in the bones, which is where the calcium should be, so consuming adequate dietary calcium in the form of powdered eggshells or consuming dairy in the form of milk. Getting about 2,000 milligrams of calcium a day will actually let you store the calcium in your bones and prevent it from being in your bloodstream which is what happens when you don't take up enough dietary calcium. So when you said your blood levels were high, that's because your bones were allowing the calcium that was in the bones to leak out into your blood supply and that's caused more of the problem. The best way to lower your blood calcium would be to intake in enough dietary calcium.
Caller: Okay, and that does help blood pressures affected that way as well? Yeah, that would also cause what Dr. Pete was talking about with calcium is that calcium in the ndothelia which is the tissue within the lining of the arterial, the arteries and the arterials, the vascular supply that's under high pressure, that is actually made more. Stretching elastic by not having calcium taken up into it, which happens when there's too much calcium in the blood and not enough in the bones. Your body through parathyroids starts to pull out calcium from the bone.
Caller: Yeah, we want to do the reverse.
Andrew: Exactly, so making sure you have a high enough dietary intake of calcium will be the best.
Caller: There should be a lot of dairy products.
Andrew: Well it doesn't have to be dairy products. Dairy products are very good and we do recommend milk intake. No, four to six, dealing with dairy, four to six glasses of whole milk if you're not overweight or two percent if you don't want the fat so much.
Caller: Right, I do.
Andrew: One of the other best ways of achieving high calcium in your dietary intake will be capsules of powdered eggshell.
Caller: Oh, really?
Andrew: Yeah, I mean what Dr. Pete's always talked about in the past is taking your eggshells and just washing them out. Washing that membrane out from the inside, storing them until you have ten or a dozen or so, and then putting them in the oven at about 350 on a baking sheet, a cookie sheet, and then put them into a coffee grinder, an electric coffee grinder, and then that resulting powder you can take about half a teaspoon a day will give you...
Sarah: Yeah, about a quarter teaspoon three times a day is just over 2,000 milligrams.
Andrew: So that 2,000 milligrams of calcium there will be very beneficial in terms of decreasing your blood calcium, but increasing your uptake of calcium into your bones.
Sarah: And we've seen this with our clients. We've seen that they have a high calcium level in their blood. Hold on one second.
Caller: Yeah, maybe I won't.
Sarah: Okay, so just one last thing I'll tell you and then we'll move on to the next caller. What we've seen is when people have high calcium in their blood, it's because they're not getting enough in their diet and when they start supplementing their diet with a higher calcium level, like closer to 2,000 milligrams, 2,000 milligrams is about two quarts of milk or we told you about the eggshell, a quarter teaspoon three times a day is about 2,000 milligrams or you can do some of both. But then you'll see the blood calcium...
Engineer: Okay, you're on hold?
Caller: Okay.
Sarah: Okay. The blood calcium level come down to a normal range which is around nine. I'll definitely try the eggshells.
Caller: I'm 75 years old and this sarcoidosis, whatever it is, definitely puts me on the fritz. The other thing that you should do in conjunction with that is actually supplement with a vitamin D supplement.
Caller: All right, I've got that.
Andrew: Yeah, the calcium and vitamin D work fairly synergistically, so.
Caller: Yeah, I had kind of the reverse opinion. I thought lust was best. Well, no, because you want to bring your blood levels down by making sure...
Caller: Right, give it back to the bone. Give it back to the bone.
Andrew: Right, exactly,
Caller: yeah. All right, so thank you very much. I'll let you have the next call if you go.
Sarah: Thank you for your call.
Andrew: Thank you for your call.
Caller: Thank you. Bye-bye.
Andrew: Hi, you're on the air?
Caller: Hello.
Andrew: Hi, you're on the air.
Caller: Hi, it's your normal engineer. Oh, hi. How you doing? So I got chicken pox, which is going around.
Andrew: Oh, yeah.
Caller: And I was wondering if, you know, some anti, or, you know, I was wondering what your recommendation would be. And also I had learned from you guys that coconut fat is antiviral. Yes. So I'm actually using that as a salve on my sores and I was wondering if you thought that was a good idea.
Sarah: Yeah, and internal would be good.
Caller: Oh yeah, I'm drinking a ton of coconut milk too.
Caller: Yeah, internally. So you've never had chicken pox before then?
Caller: No.
Andrew: Okay, then now's your first time. How bad is it?
Caller: I think I've been told it's going to get worse. I've only had it for a day.
Andrew: Right, because in adults it's generally more severe, they say, than in children. Yeah, from a point of view of anti-infectives at this point, being a viral situation, I don't know how much can be done that quickly. I think your own body will certainly get on top of it. I don't think there's anything per se that's going to really knock it back now that you're coming out with it. In terms of your skin and the lesions there, there'll be things that you can do to kind of minimise the itching, which is probably one of the main symptoms. of the chickenpox.
Caller: Not yet, but that's what I've heard.
Andrew: Yeah, well, when the vesicles burst, they're kind of fluid-filled and when they burst they'll then become quite itchy because that's a condition. It's just like shingles and herpes, the same kind of varicella zostera, the same kind of family, so they all have this kind of weeping characteristic where the fluid-filled vesicles burst and then they get very itchy. So in England, I know that calamine lotion is not exactly herbal, but calamine lotion was a fairly good, soothing, calming, topical application.
Caller: What is calamine lotion if it's not herbal?
Andrew: I'm not sure what calamine is. You could probably look it up. You could Google it, I'm sure. But it's basically a liquid that you would put on with cotton wool, damp cotton wool, and dab it on the skin in those areas that are particularly itchy. I'm trying to think if there would be anything else that would be more systemic that you could use as an anti-prioritic, you know, to stop the itch. Maybe if we get Dr. Pete back on he'll have some suggestions, but I'm afraid the engineer's wrestling with the phone and with Dr. Pete is still out of action at this point in time, so I don't quite know what's happened.
Caller: Well, I'll keep listening. Thank you very much.
Andrew: Yeah, I feel bad for you. I hope you have a happy Christmas, despite this, because it's probably going to be another. Seven to ten days, I think, before, you know, it's kind of getting resolved. But that's what I hear. I'll ask Dr. Pete, as I'm going to be getting back on the air, to see what his advice would be. But I'm sure calamine lotion could be something that you could look up. And I think that as a topical application, that would be pretty good. I know that he'll probably mention other things that would probably be better. So let's just see if we can get him back with us.
Caller: Thank you.
Andrew: Yeah, you're very welcome. And Happy New Year and Happy Christmas. Okay, Dr. Peter, do we manage to we've got Dr. Pete back on the line yet? We don't have Dr. Pete back on the line. Okay, I'm not sure what's going on. Do we have any more callers on the line?
Engineer: Yes, I had a question. You were talking about the CO2 levels, and I have been studying a little bit the Buteyko method, which is an exercise which will actually increase the CO2 levels.
Andrew: Okay, good.
Engineer: And, you know, as you mentioned, it can increase the relaxation and for me it helps with things like insomnia. And I'm curious in relation to what you're talking about. I didn't quite get... the full picture of what the CO2 levels, like raising those CO2 levels, what impact that might have.
Andrew: Right. Okay, well, Dr. Peet's talked fairly extensively about the benefits of CO2. I think most of us always associate CO2 as a poisonous gas that we need to get rid of by exhaling, when actually, I think the truth in the science is that oxygen itself is probably more poisonous than CO2, and CO2 in its own right. It's actually very anti-inflammatory, and... actually associated with greater longevity. Peoples and cultures that live at high altitudes like the Tibetans and the people in the Peruvian Andes have actually much much greater health records.
Andrew: They actually have much less inflammatory disease, they have way less cancer incidences and generally the inflammation is much less amongst the communities at high elevation because of the beneficial effects of CO2. Dr. Peat has......mentioned several times the method by which you can just bag-breathe. You get a brown paper bag and sit down in a chair and relax and just breathe in and out, re-breathing your own CO2. Now this is also a very good way of increasing CO2 levels. So I think the main effects were the anti-inflammatory, anti-stress effects of breathing in CO2 and also the longevity effects that do come with it are well documented.
Engineer: Okay. Thank you very much.
Andrew: Yeah, you're very welcome.
Caller: Thanks.
Andrew: Okay. Are there any more calls online?
Caller: Hi.
Andrew: Hi, Yolia.
Caller: So, I just had a recommendation for the...
Andrew: Hello? There was a caller there, but they suddenly disappeared.
Sarah: Dr. Pete, are you on the line?
Andrew: Okay. I'm not sure what's going on until someone tells me what's going on. I'm not sure. The call has been cut off and we've lost Dr. Pete. It's not a very good evening, but anyway, the engineer's going to do what he can. He's doing his best frantically to get Dr. Pete back on the air. Well, we should start anything new or see what comes of his frantic attempts. Okay, I think there's another caller on the air. Hi, you're on the air? Hello? No, I don't think the caller is there. Okay, well, Sarah, how about you?
Sarah: So, um...
Engineer: I think this is Dr. Pete.
Caller: Hello?
Sarah: Oh, no, this is our caller.
Andrew: Hi, caller. I think you were cut off a moment ago. Where did Dr. Pete go? I'm the caller. Um, so, I was just thinking of suggesting for iffy spots... Dr. Pete, are you there? Yeah, one minute. Our engineer is also on the line, so... You're on... Engineer, you're on the line too, so we can hear you talking.
Andrew: Okay, hang with this caller until we get his microphone off the air.
Caller: Taking soda and vinegar at...
Okay, you've taken the caller off the air again. Hello? Do you want to tell the engineer that he's taken the caller off the air? I have both callers on, so she can talk. I haven't cut her off. But we were also hearing... Well, I guess we can't hear her. I think maybe you turned her volume down to us. It's a meltdown in the studio. You're doing a good job there, Engineer. There's a bit of a problem here. We had a fuzzy connection to start with with Dr. P on the line and then... Then we cut him off. Well, okay.
Sarah: Well, bag breathing is another way that you can help to lower... since we've been talking about high blood pressure, bag breathing is... Also very good to help lower someone's blood pressure because it helps with that CO2 and putting calcium in the right place. So that's another use for that.
Andrew: And we talked about the anti-stress effects and the anti-edema effects of increased CO2 as well. And that's the high elevation civilizations that also had way less stress and way less inflammatory diseases.
Sarah: So I wonder if they have less heart disease. That would be an interesting epidemiological study.
Andrew: OK, well the engine is still shaking his head. OK. Well, I'd rather just kind of wait and see if we can get Dr. Pete back, just because it's, uh...
Andrew: Well you're listening to Ask Your Herb Doctor on KMUD Galbaville 91.1 FM and from now till the end of the show at 8 o'clock people are invited to call in with any questions either related or unrelated to this month's topic of salt, inflammation and diuretics. The number here if you live in the area is 923 3911 or if you live outside the area the number is 1800 KMUD RAD. So if there are any people that have been listening to the show would like to call in with any questions please feel free to do so now.
Andrew: Otherwise, we're going to still see if we can get Dr. Pete back on the air.
Caller: Hello?
Andrew: Hi, you're on the air.
Caller: Yeah, so I've been listening to the show today, and it all sounded very interesting to me, but I'm curious how it could pertain to athletes. It seems like diuretics, salt, calcium, all very critical in sports. I don't know if you've been able to get the doctor back on.
Andrew: I think they're still working on it, but what was your main question in relation to the topic and sport?
Caller: Well, yeah, I always have to calculate things like sweat loss to then calculate how much I need to intake during sport. I particularly practice a lot of running and cycling sports, and I was curious how to calculate salt. How much salt intake I should be taking.
Andrew: Okay, well, how much do you take in generally? Well, all my supplements, usually they're sports supplements, have a certain amount of sodium in them, and I take the recommended dosages of those, whether they're, you know, two scoops of of the product to 20 ounces of water per hour, but again, I don't know. If that's the adequate amount or if the doctor is saying that maybe we should be taking higher levels of sodium.
Sarah: Well, I do know that there's been a study that's been done with baking soda showing that athletes performed better when they took up to a tablespoon of baking soda in one day. Spread out obviously because you don't want to be diluting your stomach acid when you're trying to digest some proteins with a meal. But that's because it increases their co2 and you're as an athlete you're blowing off a lot of co2 when you're exercising especially with all that heavy aerobic exercise and it would be very good for you to have constant almost like you want it IV of glucose while you're exercising IV of glucose and all these minerals so that you can you don't put your body into a stressed state and you'll actually cope better with the endurance exercise.
Caller: So in reference to co2 am I actually looking to put my body in a slightly more hypoxic state?
Sarah: Yeah because well no you are putting your yeah you're over oxygenating yourself when you're doing aerobic exercise because you're blowing off so much co2.
Ray Peat: In effect the carbon dioxide is pulling more oxygen through your cell system.
Caller: Did the caller hear that? Have we got the caller around you on the line?
Caller: I'm still on the line. Good. Could you hear Dr. Pete? I didn't hear what he said, though. You didn't? Okay, sorry. Dr. Pete, can you repeat that?
Ray Peat: The carbon dioxide acts as if it's pulling more oxygen into the cell system. It activates the electron transport chain to use oxygen more quickly. and effectively.
Sarah: So that is what would happen when this athlete would take baking soda?
Ray Peat: Yeah, they've done it with endurance races, giving them a tablespoon of baking soda at the start of the race. You would think that it would make them more alkaline. Alkaline is not a necessarily good state. The carbon dioxide actually enters the cell and becomes an acidic form from the baking soda bicarbonate. Momentarily makes your blood more alkaline, but the absorbed carbon dioxide becomes acidic inside the cell and the intracellular......state should be slightly on the acid side when the oxygen is really working. They call it oxygen because it means acid former, and the acid that it makes is carbon dioxide. And in that slightly acidic state, oxygen is having its full action for producing energy. And it's that same... energy production which takes the calcium out of the cell and lets the cell relax and recuperate properly. If you aren't producing or retaining enough carbon dioxide, the cell will begin making lactic acid. And the lactic acid leaves the cell in an alkaline stressed condition. Even though it's acidifying the blood, it's leaving the cell....in a stressed alkaline condition that causes inflammation so too much aerobic exercise becomes catabolic and inflammatory.
Andrew: All right. Caller, so are you there? Caller, did you hear what Dr. Peter said?
Caller: Yes, yes I did.
Andrew: Perfect.
Caller: Very good information, thank you.
Andrew: Yeah, you're very welcome. Do you have anything else you wanted to say?
Caller: No, no. Thank you very much for answering my question.
Andrew: Okay, you're very welcome. All right, so... I think we have two more callers here, so let's take them one at a time and see if we can get through them before we get close to the top of the hour. You're on the air caller.
Caller: Hello, am I on?
Andrew: Yes, you're on.
Caller: Okay, I have a suggestion and also a question for Dr. Pete. I live in Laytonville and last year I discovered a product down in Willits at Mariposa that is incredible for itching and... I got it for Poison Oak and it's called Manzanita Magic and it comes in a 3 ounce bottle it is wild crafted manzanita, grape root, plantain, chickweed, organic sage, thyme and cayenne and it's a dark liquid and I'm just wondering if that would work for chicken pox and that's just my suggestion my question is
Sarah: that's well let me just say one thing quickly about that that's a wonderful product and I know the lady who makes it and that's a really good idea so thanks for calling in and letting us know that and Michael if you're still listening get yourself some manzanita magic Terry makes it
Ray Peat: did you mention aspirin for chicken pox
Andrew: no we didn't so I would like you to talk about that if you if you would but that call it
Caller: tonight yeah let's let the caller finish and then I'll get off the line it's about calcium and getting it back into your bones I've been dealing with breast cancer since 2005 and had to really pay attention to trying to keep calcium in my bones and I would like to know my understanding is that it's specifically vitamin D3 that assist with calcium going into the bones and I also I'd like Dr. Pete to comment on that and also on the ratio of calcium and magnesium that he might recommend and I'll take my answer off the air thank you.
Sarah: Thank you for your call. Dr. Pete did you hear that question?
Ray Peat: Yeah the ratio isn't as big an issue as a lot of books say. If you're getting a little excess sodium and calcium it spares the magnesium. The sodium and calcium activate cell respiration and cell respiration is needed for cells to retain magnesium. So if you're low in sodium and calcium you depend on a good thyroid function to retain magnesium. So any stress that increases albastrone. For example it's going to make you lose magnesium. So keeping your albastrone and inflammation down your thyroid calcium and sodium up is going to make you retain magnesium much more efficiently.
Engineer: All right we got three callers in five minutes.
Andrew: Well we won't we won't get that done in five minutes but first let's go back. Dr. Pete would you first give some more suggestions for Michael our engineer who's got a chicken box at the moment.
Ray Peat: Okay aspirin. Has been found to have a mild antiviral effect against several types of virus. Someone with AIDS sent me an old publication that they had begun a trial of aspirin for HIV infected people and they were getting good results when they discontinued the study but it has been uh proven. Somewhat effective for several different kinds of virus, including the herpes or chicken pox type.
Sarah: And Michael, call us. We'll give our number out at the end of the showcase. You don't have it. And we'll help direct you with the amount of vitamin K you need to take in order to use Aspen safely. And also another thing, Doctor, can you please comment about vitamin D for that lady with the calcium. She wanted to know why the vitamin D was so important.
Ray Peat: Um, you know, if you're having blood tests. It's good to have your vitamin D3 in the upper part of the normal range. And it would also be good to have the parathyroid hormone checked. When you're getting enough vitamin D and calcium, you will inhibit the parathyroid hormone. And the parathyroid hormone, although it has its place, you don't want it to be chronically.
Sarah: Because it's a cancer promoter. And we have another three callers on the line. Let's at least take one. We've got two minutes left here.
Caller: Hi. So my suggestion for the itch from Tickin' Tocks is a vinegar baking soda lick.
Andrew: Okay. I'm sorry. Listen. We're getting lots of stress here in the studio and it's one minute to eight. No, it's hilarious. So let's, I'm sorry caller to have cut you short with that recommendation that for everybody's sanity we need to make sure that we close the show at eight o'clock, pronto. And thank you so much for all those people that have called in and thank you engineer for dealing with the stress associated with losing callers and our beloved Dr. Pete. Thank you so much. for joining us again. And we're just going to give out some contact details. Yeah, contact details for Dr. Raymond Pete. Visit his website please www.raypeat.com. That's raypeat.com. Lots of scholarly articles, fully referenced scientific literature. Open your eyes folks and go and take a look at what he's got on the website. That will refute a lot of the misconceptions. Thank you to all those people that have phoned in. And we can be reached.
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